Original Usenet thread from alt.ascii-art, started 26 Mar 1999.
FAQs: What to do?
alt.ascii-art
· 58 messages · 26 Mar 1999 - 21 Apr 1999
OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again.
At the moment, we have the following FAQy documents for this group (old and
new):
The ASCII Art FAQ
This document, written by Matthew Thomas, is the main FAQ
list for the newsgroup and to a lesser extent the other
ASCII art newsgroups rec.arts.ascii and
alt.ascii-art.animation.
alt.ascii-art Documents List
A list of all of the FAQ documents: what they are,
who wrote them and where you can find them.
Scarecrow's ASCII Art FAQ (old)
An old FAQ list for alt.ascii-art. Still relevant
but in some places (especially URLs) out of date.
This was originally written for rec.arts.ascii.
Jorn Barger's Technical ASCII Art FAQ (old)
Another old FAQ list, this one is more technical.
WARNING: Control Codes
A document explaining what you should and
shouldn't do in ascii art, written by Colin
Douthwaite.
All you need for ASCII Art: Monospaced Fonts, Text Editors and ASCII Utils!
In the main FAQ it refers to needing Monospaced
Fonts and Text Editors. This is a list of many
examples on many computers to help you in
selecting one that suits you. Also a list of
information on ASCII Art Utilities including
FIGlet and GIFscii.
Tutorial: Making a Start in ASCII Art
A tutorial written by Daniel Au to help people
get started in drawing their own ascii art.
ASCII Art not looking right? Read this!
A short guide, written by Martin Atkins, about
what to do if an ascii picture doesn't look
like what the creator says it is.
Copyright FAQ
A guide, by Pete Casso, to how copyright laws
affect ASCII Art. Includes a quote directly from
the US government copyright information site.
How to find ASCII Art
A short guide on hunting down ascii pictures on
the world wide web.
Read before requesting ASCII Art
A short guide to making a request for a picture
on alt.ascii-art. Written by Joan Stark.
History of alt.ascii-art
A rundown of the developments in alt.ascii-art
in 1997/98 written by Colin Douthwaite.
Guide to 'diddling'
Diddling is the name given to changing/improving
original ascii art posted to the newsgroup. This
is a short guide to the accepted dos and don'ts
of diddling ascii art.
Registry patch to make Outlook Express do ASCII Art properly(ish)
A registry file and instructions of use to make
Outlook Express use the correct fonts and settings
for reading ASCII Art in newsgroups.
I used to post the following weekly...
ESSENTIAL READING FOR ALL NEW TO ALT.ASCII-ART
All you need for ascii art: Monospaced fonts, Text Editors and ASCII Utils!
[FAQ] *** Ascii Art not looking right? Read this!
[FAQ] New to ascii art? Read me first!
Ye Olde SCARECROW Ascii Art FAQ (Bob Allison)
Ye Olde Technical ASCII ART FAQ (Jorn Barger)
WARNING: Control Codes **2nd REVISION** (Colin Douthwaite)
TUTORIAL: Make a Start in Ascii Art *REVISED*
Tips on viewing Ascii Animations (Colin Douthwaite)
This is *way*to many weekly FAQ postings, and I have got quite a few
complaints about them. After Matthew Thomas suggested that we only have one
posted, I bunged these all on a web site as suggested.
The questions now are...
1. Which ones get posted?
2. Who posts them (I'm happy to keep this job)
3. How often they are posted
4. How the ones that aren't posted will be 'advertised'
5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site.
My Opinions
-----------
What would be good is for someone (I'd be happy to do it) to keep a list of
all of the FAQ locations somewhere, and whenever someone puts up one of
these FAQ documents on their web site they let the list owner know the URL
(obviously) and the country/area the server in question is.
That way we could have a quite comprehensive list of sites scattered around
the world and people can pick their closest location from the list.
The FAQ by Matthew would be good as the only document posted, since that was
what it was for..... but it would be a good idea to incorporate the
ESSENTIAL READING FOR ALL NEW TO ALT.ASCII-ART (ie what the other documents
are) into it, including the site list detailed above.
I also feel that weekly is a good posting frequency. I can't go any more
often than twice a week, so if anyone wants that then someone else will have
to take over the FAQ posting from me!
I put up the FAQ site that I've been going on about before this discussion
started... I was intending it to be a 'get it all from here'-type site, but
after suggestions of sites all over the world I have changed my mind on that
one.
One thing I do think is quite important is that we decide on a format for
these FAQ-hosting websites ie Will the FAQs be in HTML format or text? Will
they use wizzy colours and fonts or just <P>s and <PRE>s ? Would it be a
good idea to use some external CSS to make the site more attractive to
modern browsers, while keeping the file sizes down and retaining backwards
compatibility? I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really
be identical as far as possible, for the perposes of easy linking and things
(for example always keeping the same filenames so when a question is asked
and we quote a URL for the answer, we know what file to link to) at the
moment I have ascfaq.htm on one site, aaafaq.htm on another, and aaafaq.txt
on another. Others I have seen are faq.htm, asciifaq.html etc etc... this,
while probably seeming a bit pedantic and pointless should make things a
little easier.
Er, that ended up a little longer than I first intended. *Shrug*
----------
Anyways, let's discuss it a little and I'll happily go along with whatever
is decided by the group as a whole.
-Martin
__ __ _ _
| \/ |__ _ _ _| |_(_)_ _
| |\/| / _` | '_| _| | ' \ o Happy Birthday to me...
|_| |_\__,_|_| _\__|_|_||_| /|\ It`s my birthday you see...
/_\| |_| |_(_)_ _ ___ / \ On the 25th day of March...
/ _ \ _| / / | ' \(_-< Happy Birthday to me...
/_/ \_\__|_\_\_|_||_/__/
mart.atkins @ bigfoot.com --- REPLY ADDRESS IS ROT13`ed
http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ascii.htm
If you are new to the newsgroup, please read our FAQ list -
posted weekly and on the web at
http://vibes.vossnet.co.uk/i/ighaig/ascfaq.htm
Here is what I see and notice:
1. Each newsgroups seems to have one FAQ post ---- we really should only
have one not 10 different ones. No links page. If you want to show
those links, you should show them in the FAQs.
2. The content of the FAQs should be of good quaility, precise, and factual
(as close as possible anyway). Things that are not for sure, should be
left out or stated as such.
3. The length in content of the FAQ's should not matter. The
alt.drinks.Kool-Aid Faq's are 40 pages long, but everything you need
to know is in there. One stop shopping in outline form. I helped write
this one and have never had anyone complain about the length of it to
me or the last 2 keepers of these FAQs. It has always been written to
us that they like all the info.
4. Once a week or even every 10 days is plenty. If someone has never been
to our newsgroup before, the FAQ's will show up in their postings when
they do get in here and look around. And no, it doesn't matter who posts
them. Martin you are doing a great job and should continue.
5. Mathew needs to take some time and make the final decision on this
stuff. He is the keeper of the FAQ's and that's his responsibility as
such. I have faith that he will make the right choices. Input from all
of us is helpful. But this is his baby right now, as he is the keeper.
And we all need to support him on his decision. So, if Mathew think
some of the content from the other FAQ helpers should be included, then
I say let him be the decision maker on what should and should not be
added. If he wants help he can always ask us...plus I see an eager
Martin ready to write some more. *S*
SO Mathew Thomas, old friend, these are my thoughts to you and to Martin.
These are obviously just my opinions as a regular poster and contributor
to this newsgroup.
--
Peace,
Donovan
/\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/
/_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry,
/_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam.
/_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836
_-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_-
.,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST
(O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html
( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95!
-"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
My opinions:
All the FAQ documents should be combined into one document. Yes, I know
this makes a monster but it does put all the information in one place
and gets rid of repetitive information in some documents.
If you make a web page for the FAQ, it should have a linked index. Other
than that no real bells and whistles is really necessary. Remember the
medium that this is discussing. Plus, it gives the FAQ a professional
look (if that is desired.)
If the first two are followed then mirroring may not really be
necessary. It can be done but the mirror list should be kept at the web
site not in the posted FAQ document. It isn't necessary since the
mirrors are really for the web site.
Somewhere between once a week and once every two weeks is plenty for
posting the FAQ to the group.
--
/)-._ Time : Fri Mar 26 11:49:33 1999
Y. ' _]
,.._ |`--"= Small change can often be found under seat
/ "-/ `.\ cushions.
/) sk | |_ `\|___
\:::::::\___/_\__\_______\
- Lazarus Long, a fictional character created by Robert Heinlein
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins (zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz) wrote: : 1. Which ones get posted? I'd suggest posting the most newbie-oriented one (new to ascii art?) and including links to the rest. : 3. How often they are posted Weekly seems good enough. There is no perfect frequency, one just has to make some compromise. : 4. How the ones that aren't posted will be 'advertised' See above. Including URLs in .sigs isn't a bad idea either. : 5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site. Anyone who wants, but there should be a central repository. I might not be the only one who'd really appreciate a mailing list (manual or automatic) of FAQ updates so we can keep the mirrors synchronised. And yes, that means I'm volunteering mirror space. Heck, if no-one else is ready to handle the mailing list I suppose I could do that too, but I'm not really asking for it.. Of course the FAQ author has the final voice in this matter, but I should think anyone writing a FAQ for a newsgroup would agree to the above system. : One thing I do think is quite important is that we decide on a format for : these FAQ-hosting websites ie Will the FAQs be in HTML format or text? Will : they use wizzy colours and fonts or just <P>s and <PRE>s ? Would it be a HTML 2.0 (with tables if absolutely necessary), minimal CSS (mostly for suggesting fonts). A FAQ is about information, not about flashy colors, and while it doesn't have to be dull, one should follow the KISS principle. (keep it simple, stupid) For an example of what I have in mind, see <http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/redcode/guide.html>. A document like that is really an independent entity, not part of the rest of the site. The only part of my standard site design I've included is the navigation bar at the bottom, and IMO it really sticks out.. : compatibility? I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really : be identical as far as possible, for the perposes of easy linking and things This is also one reason not to match the FAQs to site styles. I recommend keeping it as plain as possible to avoid stylistic clashes, but whatever particular style is used, it should be the same on _all_ mirrors. -- <-- Ilmari Karonen --><-- http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ --><-- ilt...@sci.fi --> "Even today, there appears to be a pretty large pool of people with the mindset that, - - being told that the unit they are volunteering for is going to take 66% KIA, causes them to look at the follow on each side of them and think 'tough luck, you poor bastards.'" -- tsb...@aol.com
.----- On 26 Mar 1999 19:27:16 GMT,Ilmari Karonen posted:
|
|: 5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site.
|
|Anyone who wants, but there should be a central repository. I might not be
|the only one who'd really appreciate a mailing list (manual or automatic)
|of FAQ updates so we can keep the mirrors synchronised.
'----------------------------------
I could do that... I've already got some mailing lists of sorts going from
my computer so it shouldn't take that much effort to do another one.
.----------------------------------
|And yes, that means I'm volunteering mirror space. Heck, if no-one else is
|ready to handle the mailing list I suppose I could do that too, but I'm
|not really asking for it..
'----------------------------------
As above, I'm also happy to do it.
.----------------------------------
|Of course the FAQ author has the final voice in this matter, but I should
|think anyone writing a FAQ for a newsgroup would agree to the above
|system.
'----------------------------------
Well, that's dependant on which FAQ(s) we end up using... they are all
written by different people. Matthew gets to decide what it in his main FAQ,
but I feel that the rest of the decisions should be shared ones.
.----------------------------------
|: One thing I do think is quite important is that we decide on a format for
|: these FAQ-hosting websites ie Will the FAQs be in HTML format or text? Will
|: they use wizzy colours and fonts or just <P>s and <PRE>s ? Would it be a
|
|HTML 2.0 (with tables if absolutely necessary), minimal CSS (mostly for
|suggesting fonts). A FAQ is about information, not about flashy colors,
|and while it doesn't have to be dull, one should follow the KISS
|principle. (keep it simple, stupid)
'----------------------------------
I agree with that. Make it look attractive, but mostly keep it small and
simple.
.----------------------------------
|For an example of what I have in mind, see
|<http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/redcode/guide.html>. A document like that is
|really an independent entity, not part of the rest of the site. The only
|part of my standard site design I've included is the navigation bar at the
|bottom, and IMO it really sticks out..
|
|: compatibility? I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really
|: be identical as far as possible, for the perposes of easy linking and things
|
|This is also one reason not to match the FAQs to site styles. I recommend
|keeping it as plain as possible to avoid stylistic clashes, but whatever
|particular style is used, it should be the same on _all_ mirrors.
|
'----------------------------------
I've currently got the FAQ list I mentioned before indentically in three
places...
http://martweb.hypermart.net/aaafaq/
http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/aaafaq/
http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/
I'm pretty pleased with how I did that site, but welcome any ideas and
critiques on it.
Well, anyone else? ;o)
-Martin
__ __ _ _
| \/ |__ _ _ _| |_(_)_ _
| |\/| / _` | '_| _| | ' \ o Happy Birthday to me...
|_| |_\__,_|_| _\__|_|_||_| /|\ It`s my birthday you see...
/_\| |_| |_(_)_ _ ___ / \ On the 25th day of March...
/ _ \ _| / / | ' \(_-< Happy Birthday to me...
/_/ \_\__|_\_\_|_||_/__/
mart.atkins @ bigfoot.com --- REPLY ADDRESS IS ROT13`ed
http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ascii.htm
If you are new to the newsgroup, please read our FAQ list -
posted weekly and on the web at
http://vibes.vossnet.co.uk/i/ighaig/ascfaq.htm
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 09:01:20 -0600, Donovan posted:
|Here is what I see and notice:
|
|1. Each newsgroups seems to have one FAQ post ---- we really should only
| have one not 10 different ones. No links page. If you want to show
| those links, you should show them in the FAQs.
'---------------------------
I agree with that -- but the older FAQs that Colin used to post are still
useful so should be available on the web and be linked to, and I believe
that the 'MINIFAQ' and the 'Not Looking Right?' document should either be
incorporated into the FAQ and be made a *lot* more obvious or given a link
to the web sites.
.---------------------------
|2. The content of the FAQs should be of good quaility, precise, and factual
| (as close as possible anyway). Things that are not for sure, should be
| left out or stated as such.
'---------------------------
The FAQ as it stands is good and covers most things in just the right amount
of detail... there are other points where it is weak, however, which is
where the other supporting documents come in.
.---------------------------
|3. The length in content of the FAQ's should not matter. The
| alt.drinks.Kool-Aid Faq's are 40 pages long, but everything you need
| to know is in there. One stop shopping in outline form. I helped write
| this one and have never had anyone complain about the length of it to
| me or the last 2 keepers of these FAQs. It has always been written to
| us that they like all the info.
'---------------------------
Agreed. The FAQ should be as long as is required to cover everything that
needs covering.
.---------------------------
|4. Once a week or even every 10 days is plenty. If someone has never been
| to our newsgroup before, the FAQ's will show up in their postings when
| they do get in here and look around. And no, it doesn't matter who posts
| them. Martin you are doing a great job and should continue.
'---------------------------
If it's going to be me, I will usually only be able to post on a Sunday or a
Wednesday, so every ten days would be awkward. I can easily do weekly,
however, as I've been doing it as such for a while now.
.---------------------------
|5. Mathew needs to take some time and make the final decision on this
| stuff. He is the keeper of the FAQ's and that's his responsibility as
| such. I have faith that he will make the right choices. Input from all
| of us is helpful. But this is his baby right now, as he is the keeper.
| And we all need to support him on his decision. So, if Mathew think
| some of the content from the other FAQ helpers should be included, then
| I say let him be the decision maker on what should and should not be
| added. If he wants help he can always ask us...plus I see an eager
| Martin ready to write some more. *S*
'---------------------------
Hmm. I think that while Matthew Thomas writes his FAQ it is all of us who
decide collectively what happens to it and any other documents. It's been me
for a while now who has been 'keeping' the FAQ and other docs, and posting
them. As for an eager me... I like writing informational documents, so I'm
happy to help with anything that needs doing. I also enjoy writing web pages
so I can do that too... I know quite a lot about it since it's my job at my
ISP, Voss Net.
.---------------------------
|SO Mathew Thomas, old friend, these are my thoughts to you and to Martin.
|
|These are obviously just my opinions as a regular poster and contributor
|to this newsgroup.
'---------------------------
All opinons count! It's important that everyone's input is taken into
account when deciding on these new FAQ arrangements.
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:14:51 -0500, Martin DiViaio posted:
|All the FAQ documents should be combined into one document. Yes, I know
|this makes a monster but it does put all the information in one place
|and gets rid of repetitive information in some documents.
'----------------------
That would be the ideal thing, but having a huge document (I feel) may turn
people away from taking the time to read it, defeating it's object. The
documents with obvious headings ('Monospaced Fonts. Text Editors and ASCII
Utils!' and 'Not looking right? Read this') help to give newbies (for want
of a better word) an obvious place to look for the two most asked questions
of all. This will need to be kept obvious in some way.
.----------------------
|If you make a web page for the FAQ, it should have a linked index. Other
|than that no real bells and whistles is really necessary. Remember the
|medium that this is discussing. Plus, it gives the FAQ a professional
|look (if that is desired.)
'----------------------
I feel that it is easier for all concerned to just have one copy of the main
FAQ in plain text format... if we have an HTML version and a Text version
hanging around things will be harder to keep under control and keep people
updated.
.----------------------
|If the first two are followed then mirroring may not really be
|necessary. It can be done but the mirror list should be kept at the web
|site not in the posted FAQ document. It isn't necessary since the
|mirrors are really for the web site.
'----------------------
Surely the point of the list of mirrors is to find your closest site
*before* you go to the web site? If you need to go to a web site to find the
mirrors list it kinda defeats the object. There should be a list on the web
sites too, I think.
.----------------------
|Somewhere between once a week and once every two weeks is plenty for
|posting the FAQ to the group.
'----------------------
Both are fine by me.
-Martin (starting to act a little presumptously) <-- pre-what?
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 20:59:23 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
|.----- On 26 Mar 1999 19:27:16 GMT,Ilmari Karonen posted:
||
||: 5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site.
||
||Anyone who wants, but there should be a central repository. I might not be
||the only one who'd really appreciate a mailing list (manual or automatic)
||of FAQ updates so we can keep the mirrors synchronised.
|'----------------------------------
|I could do that... I've already got some mailing lists of sorts going from
|my computer so it shouldn't take that much effort to do another one.
|
'-------------------------------
I just wrote the script to do the mailing. It loads in all of the mirror
site owner's email addresses from the same database used to produce the
mirror site links page and sends whatever I insert into the text box to
them... of course that will be the FAQ when it's done.
I've also got a quick one-shot 'hash together an HTML document and email it'
script for the mirrors list, which just grabs the info from the database and
formats it in tables under country headings.
I was going to put up an example of the mirrors list, but I can't seem to
connect to my hypermart site ATM.
Does anyone have any problem with me doing the mailing of the FAQ
document(s) and mirrors list along with posting the one(s) we decide on each
week?
Incidentally, what country and town is your site's server (www.sci.fi?) in
Ilmari? And where are you likely to put the FAQ documents on your site? What
is the name of the server?
I shouldn't really be doing this yet... ;o)
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
Martin Atkins wrote: > > .----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 12:14:51 -0500, Martin DiViaio posted: > |All the FAQ documents should be combined into one document. Yes, I know > |this makes a monster but it does put all the information in one place > |and gets rid of repetitive information in some documents. > '---------------------- > That would be the ideal thing, but having a huge document (I feel) may turn > people away from taking the time to read it, defeating it's object. [...] True. And I don't think that "combining" does much good to the quality of the text. The documents we are talking about have different qualities and usually a different purpose then Matthews FAQ. > I feel that it is easier for all concerned to just have one copy of the main > FAQ in plain text format... if we have an HTML version and a Text version > hanging around things will be harder to keep under control and keep people > updated. I agree. Better only have a text version. If I have to use a HTML version on my site then I would (again) change it to match my colours with the result of creating a "changed" copy. Not good. > |If the first two are followed then mirroring may not really be > |necessary. It can be done but the mirror list should be kept at the web > |site not in the posted FAQ document. It isn't necessary since the > |mirrors are really for the web site. > '---------------------- > Surely the point of the list of mirrors is to find your closest site > *before* you go to the web site? If you need to go to a web site to find the > mirrors list it kinda defeats the object. Again I agree. But the point is really to have an up to date copy in various places. To list those locations in the document itself is a bit pointless at first glance but some people might just bookmark it at first for later reading and as I said before I would skip the "reading" bit if the only link is slow, launches popups etc etc. :) Andreas .---...__ .. ____ '| ASCII `:;=-. http://www.stud.uni-hannover.de/~freise ___ || ART )| [) __________ `==-...___''.-.| ______________________________________________ ((o)(o)'`-(o)'__________ """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""a:f
Martin Atkins wrote: > > .---------------------- > |If you make a web page for the FAQ, it should have a linked index. Other > |than that no real bells and whistles is really necessary. Remember the > |medium that this is discussing. Plus, it gives the FAQ a professional > |look (if that is desired.) > '---------------------- > I feel that it is easier for all concerned to just have one copy of the main > FAQ in plain text format... if we have an HTML version and a Text version > hanging around things will be harder to keep under control and keep people > updated. There are many programs/scripts hanging around that can strip HTML out of a document. So if you maintain the HTML version the plain text version would require minimal effort. Remember also, you are talking about MINIMUM HTML formatting. With the exception of the linked index, all that will be in the document are <PRE>, <P>, and <TARGET> tags. If you use a script to edit the HTML version, you can easily tweek it to look for those tags specifically. I know, I know. This sounds backwards to what you want to do. In reality, you should think about posting the FAQ to the newsgroup as secondary to maintaining the website. To post the FAQ to the group would only require some work with a word processor and an HTML strip program. > > .---------------------- > |If the first two are followed then mirroring may not really be > |necessary. It can be done but the mirror list should be kept at the web > |site not in the posted FAQ document. It isn't necessary since the > |mirrors are really for the web site. > '---------------------- > Surely the point of the list of mirrors is to find your closest site > *before* you go to the web site? If you need to go to a web site to find the > mirrors list it kinda defeats the object. There should be a list on the web > sites too, I think. > Yes and no. While is sounds logical to maintain a mirror list off of a website, it really is impractical. Keep in mind that what ever address you use will be considered the prime resource for the FAQs. This will be everyone's starting point when looking into them. One question. Are you planning to offer the FAQs in an archived format for downloading? -- /)-._ Time : Sat Mar 27 08:03:58 1999 Y. ' _] ,.._ |`--"= Ooops. My brain just hit a bad sector. / "-/ `.\ /) sk | |_ `\|___ \:::::::\___/_\__\_______\
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
|
|OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again.
|
'-----------------
Another good reason to use plain text for the FAQ documents is that
GeoCities, Hypermart, Tripod etc can't add popup scripts and the like to
it... that has to be reason enough surely?
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
NO ON HTML FORMAT!
FAQ's should be text only! A list of websites where you can go to view the
FAQ's in fully linked format should be listed. Just like it is now. The ones
posted here should be text only, so EVERYONE can read them. IF you want to
see a fully linked version use the list in the FAQ's.
Like this one: http://www.misslink.net/donovan/asciifaq.html
--
Peace,
Donovan
/\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/
/_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry,
/_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam.
/_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836
_-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_-
.,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST
(O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html
( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95!
-"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
Martin DiViaio wrote in message <36F...@erols.com>...
>Martin Atkins wrote:
>>
>> .----------------------
>> |If you make a web page for the FAQ, it should have a linked index. Other
>> |than that no real bells and whistles is really necessary. Remember the
>> |medium that this is discussing. Plus, it gives the FAQ a professional
>> |look (if that is desired.)
>> '----------------------
>> I feel that it is easier for all concerned to just have one copy of the
main
>> FAQ in plain text format... if we have an HTML version and a Text version
>> hanging around things will be harder to keep under control and keep
people
>> updated.
>
>There are many programs/scripts hanging around that can strip HTML out
>of a document. So if you maintain the HTML version the plain text
>version would require minimal effort. Remember also, you are talking
>about MINIMUM HTML formatting. With the exception of the linked index,
>all that will be in the document are <PRE>, <P>, and <TARGET> tags. If
>you use a script to edit the HTML version, you can easily tweek it to
>look for those tags specifically.
>
>I know, I know. This sounds backwards to what you want to do. In
>reality, you should think about posting the FAQ to the newsgroup as
>secondary to maintaining the website. To post the FAQ to the group would
>only require some work with a word processor and an HTML strip program.
>
>>
>> .----------------------
>> |If the first two are followed then mirroring may not really be
>> |necessary. It can be done but the mirror list should be kept at the web
>> |site not in the posted FAQ document. It isn't necessary since the
>> |mirrors are really for the web site.
>> '----------------------
>> Surely the point of the list of mirrors is to find your closest site
>> *before* you go to the web site? If you need to go to a web site to find
the
>> mirrors list it kinda defeats the object. There should be a list on the
web
>> sites too, I think.
>>
>
>Yes and no. While is sounds logical to maintain a mirror list off of a
>website, it really is impractical. Keep in mind that what ever address
>you use will be considered the prime resource for the FAQs. This will be
>everyone's starting point when looking into them.
>
>One question. Are you planning to offer the FAQs in an archived format
>for downloading?
>
>--
> /)-._ Time : Sat Mar 27 08:03:58 1999
> Y. ' _]
> ,.._ |`--"= Ooops. My brain just hit a bad sector.
> / "-/ `.\
> /) sk | |_ `\|___
> \:::::::\___/_\__\_______\
Martin Atkins wrote: > <snip of much too long list> > One thing I do think is quite important is that we decide on a format for > these FAQ-hosting websites "Important"? Why? > ie Will the FAQs be in HTML format or text? Yes (or Word format, or postscript, or...) > Will they use wizzy colours and fonts or just <P>s and <PRE>s ? Yes. Whatever suits each person. > Would it be a > good idea to use some external CSS to make the site more attractive to > modern browsers, while keeping the file sizes down and retaining backwards > compatibility? Yes. At this point you wouldn't be able to convince ME to do it any other way, but I also know people who wouldn't do it that way if you forced them to... > I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really > be identical as far as possible, Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage layout for them? > for the perposes of easy linking and things > (for example always keeping the same filenames so when a question is asked > and we quote a URL for the answer, we know what file to link to) at the > moment I have ascfaq.htm on one site, aaafaq.htm on another, and aaafaq.txt > on another. Others I have seen are faq.htm, asciifaq.html etc etc... this, > while probably seeming a bit pedantic and pointless should make things a > little easier. The file name thing I can agree with, however. -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
Veronica Karlsson wrote in message <36F...@on.spammer>... >Martin Atkins wrote: <snip> >> I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really >> be identical as far as possible, > >Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage >layout for them? <snip> Apperance maybe, but not in functionality. I would stop hosting FAQ's if that were true. Don't you realize how hard it is for folks to scroll down to a section that they want to read? That is the point of having it fully linked. Posting to a newsgroup should be straight text, but the mirror sites should be much easier to use. 40 pages of Kool-Aid FAQ's and all you want to know is how to use Kool-Aid to get rid of rust stains in the bath tub. Without linking it, it would take that poor sole too much time to care. And it is difficult to just look for a certain heading without taking all day. Especially if you are new! Peace, Donovan /\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/ /_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry, /_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam. /_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836 _-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_- .,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST (O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html ( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95! -"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
Donovan wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > >Martin Atkins wrote: > <snip> > >> I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really > >> be identical as far as possible, > > > >Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage > >layout for them? > > <snip> > > Apperance maybe, but not in functionality. I would stop hosting FAQ's if > that were true. Don't you realize how hard it is for folks to scroll down > to a section that they want to read? That is the point of having it fully > linked. Posting to a newsgroup should be straight text, but the mirror > sites should be much easier to use. I did not say to not use links to places further down in the page. I said that each person should be able to choose how they want to format their copy. I.e. what colours to use, what kind of file to use, if they want to use <p> or <pre> for ordinairy text, if they want to use CSS, etc. It's all just looks. What matters is the content. > 40 pages of Kool-Aid FAQ's and all you want to know is how to use Kool-Aid > to get rid of rust stains in the bath tub. Without linking it, it would take > that poor sole too much time to care. And it is difficult to just look for a > certain heading without taking all day. Especially if you are new! Yes, I do not recall makin ANY argument AGAINST that! -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz (Martin Atkins) wrote: > >OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again. I know its a major sin but until today I had never read any one of the FAQs through, even my skimming was pretty quick. Just by reading the postings to the group as I put in my lurker time I was able to pick up on the "rules" for the group and ascii art. Because I know I can not be the only one out there I would suggest a condensed, simplified version of the FAQ be posted regularly. It could be posted with the main FAQ or it could alternate with it. The Ten Commandments would give lazy lurkers some idea of how things work without straining their attention spans, etc. Laura Im not just a lurker Im an artist :) http://members.xoom.com/ldb/ldbascii.htm
On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 21:15:22 +0200, Veronica Karlsson (dre...@on.spammer) wrote:
: I said that each person should be able to choose how they want to format
: their copy. I.e. what colours to use, what kind of file to use, if they
: want to use <p> or <pre> for ordinairy text, if they want to use CSS,
: etc. It's all just looks. What matters is the content.
I agree with that if and only if sufficiently narrow limits are placed on
what changes can be made. I've seen too many sites where the style itself
- even if entirely approprite for the main content and reader profile of
said site - makes reading a FAQ a pain.
Think dark green 7pt "fancy" font on black starfield background, width
limited to 400 pixels, enclosed in a table in order to top it all with a
graphically intensive navigation column.
Maybe none of us would do that to the FAQ, but maybe someone would.
Besides, there are several other points:
* A FAQ file should above all be as readable as possible. The reader's
default setting usually get closer to that than anything the page
designer can provide. Not everyone wants to override author styles even
if they do prefer their FAQs simple and legible.
* If the FAQs are updated anywhere near frequently, the HTML for each
mirror should be identical. Of course, a LINK element could be used to
add site-specific styles, but this still imposes limits in any case.
* Relating to the previous point, IMHO the whole point of mirroring is
that the mirrors should be identical, not varying interpretations of
the base document. The way I see it, if the author of the original page
wants BODY { text-color: green; } then green text it shall be, but not
otherwise.
* Besides, people expect informational decuments to be simple and without
distractions. Just because I can read the FAQ just as easily in purple
text doesn't mean that the unexpected color change wouln't be an
incovenience if I was browsing around for info on, say, configuring OE4
to show ascii art properly.
The key here is relevancy. I'd have no problems with a big animated GIF if
it was useful for illustrating a particular answer. But such decisions are
up to the FAQ author, not to the mirror providers.
I'm not saying some allowances couldn't be made. For example a
site-specific navigation bar at the bottom shouldn't be too bad, though
just a simple link might suffice. I suppose we'll have to allow GeoGuides
too.. :-(
Anyway, that's just my view. If those with the power (the FAQ author(s))
decide that mirrors may use their own styles, then I won't complain. But
my copy (if I'm allowed one, that is) will still be faithful to the
original, and I hope just for the readers' sake that the central mirror
list will mark mirrors as either original or modified.
</rant>, I suppose, though I _was_ trying to avoid overreacting.
--
. _, .. j u s t. h o w l.i n g i n .t h e n.i g h t .. ._, .
, )'' . /\_ . ' ,/\ . , ``( ,
_\__/ |__.'\._______,--;_'_`-.___,.______,/_,_`.__,-.__'__,/`-._,_| \____
,_f_)\. Ilmari Karonen ilt...@sci.fi http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ /(_|_,.
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
|
|OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again.
|
'------------------------
Things have been discussed. I now feel it is time to clarify a few things
and to bring together the current ideas and suggestions together, which is
the perpose of this post. I will add a few more questions that have come to
light since the thread started, too.
So, what follows is a munge together of all of the opinions I have seen
posted so far.
.------------------------
|The questions now are...
|1. Which ones get posted?
'------------------------
The general concencus (ikky spelling) is that only the '[faq] New to ASCII
Art? Read this!' document by Matthew should be posted to the newsgroup, and
that it should contain addresses of other sites where faq documents are
located. All FAQ document sites should be *identical* in filenames, page
content, everything... so that the faq can say at the start...
Throughout this document, files ending in .txt may be referred to. These can
be found at the following sites:
http://martweb.hypermart.net/aaafaq/ (Seattle, America)
http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/aaafaq/ (Langley, UK)
http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/ (Somewhere, UK)
.... etc
and then the faq can say something like...
see aaaminifaq.txt for a more detailed list of fonts...
(all this is theoretical and these are purely examples)
.------------------------
|2. Who posts them (I'm happy to keep this job)
'------------------------
It seems that I still have this job, although only Donovan has confirmed
this to my knowledge.
.------------------------
|3. How often they are posted
'------------------------
Everyone seems happy with a week, more or less. Suggested times have ranged
from weekly to bi-weekly, but everyone said that weekly was OK.
.------------------------
|4. How the ones that aren't posted will be 'advertised'
'------------------------
These should be referenced in the Main FAQ, along with the list of sites on
which all of these documents are located. (see under question 1 above for
more). This means that all mirror sites will have to have all of the files,
or nothing at all... and have identical filenames.
.------------------------
|5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site.
'------------------------
This really has to wait until we've answered the new questions and agreed on
the above ones.
These 'new questions' basically are...
1. We have a whole lot of documents here. Is it worth keeping the old ones?
2. Some of the 'current' ones will need rewriting (alt.ascii-art documents
list springs to mind) ... how will this be handled?
3. Are we to have mirrors of all of our agreed documents identically, or
just on a 'whatever owner decides to put up' basis as we have now, with all
of the sites doing it differently.
4. Who will be responsible for maintaining the list of FAQ documents, and
mailing it out to everybody who has a mirror? (I volunteer for this job,
since I already have most of the required stuff set up and ready.)
and of course, again...
5. Who will have a mirror site?
But this one will have to wait until everything else is decided.
*** Things to bear in mind ***
Some people have systems that are only capable of 8.3 filenames (that is
filenames with eight letters, then a dot, then three more).
Some web hosting sites don't allow you to use subdirectories.
It needs to be as small as possible for fast downloads and minimal web space
usage on people with limited space.
I will post another summary message like this after these new points have
been discussed a little. After that, I think we should have a little time to
humm over the final decisions before they are 'set in stone' as it were.
One point that has arisen is that Matthew Thomas is now taking about mirrors
of just his FAQ document (i think). If this was to happen, it could get a
little complicated. It is my feeling that things should wait until
everything has been finalised, but since Matthew has already started work on
the FAQ version 3, it would be a good idea for all of the people who are
considering mirroring all of the documents to take Matthew's new version for
now, and put it where you would put all of the others, and call it what
everyone else will. I propose aaafaq.txt for this, since that is what I've
been using on my current 'mirror-ish' sites, but that's something else that
needs deciding really.
(Opinions stated in the first part of this message are an amalgamation of
other peoples comments, not mine. However, later on I add my opinions. Use
your common sense to tell the difference! <g>)
Once it's been chewed over a little more with the new questions, I'll post a
final proposal based on everyone's ideas.
More of my Opinions
-------------------
Matthew is currently updating his FAQ to version 3. I think that while we
are revamping the FAQ arrangements we should also revamp the documents
themselves.
I propose that we do these things...
Produce a FAQ site in a similar fashion to the one I've been going on about
constantly since this discussion started (sorry 'bout that), then take all
of the old FAQ documents on there and decide if a new document does it's job
for it (eg Scarecrow's ASCII FAQ has been superseded by Matthew Thomas').
We should then retire the old documents and put them on a separate page of
links on the FAQ site (making it clear that they are old and are there for
perposes of archiving only, and that there is more up-to-date info in the
newer documents.)
We should make sure that all of the 'current' documents are given a revamp,
too, and adapted to fit the new arrangements. Where the author of the (hmm
as I was writing this an hour of time mysteriously disappeared... <g>)
document is still around on a.a-a they should do the rewriting, or in the
case of documents such as those of our beloved departed Colin people should
be nominated to produce a better version. In some cases (such as 'WARNING:
Control Codes') these old documents are being incorporated into the main
FAQ, so won't need rewriting as such.
Proposals...
* The ASCII Art FAQ
Let Matthew update this as he is now, but with whatever mirroring
arrangements we decide on reflected in it.
* alt.ascii-art Documents List
This will be no longer necessary, as the main FAQ and the web site (mirrors)
will contain the information that used to be here.
* Scarecrow's ASCII Art FAQ (old)
This should be retired to the 'old' page.
* Jorn Barger's Technical ASCII Art FAQ (old)
This too.
* WARNING: Control Codes
Matthew is incorporating this information into v3 of his FAQ, so this can be
retired.
* All you need for ASCII Art: Monospaced Fonts, Text Editors and ASCII
Utils!
I think that this document is still forfilling a useful function and so
should be put on the FAQ sites and linked from the main FAQ. Should be
revamped
* Tutorial: Making a Start in ASCII Art
This should be retired and superseded by my new tutorial (see below)
* ASCII Art not looking right? Read this!
Matthew plans to incorporate this into his FAQ, so this should be retired.
* Copyright FAQ
Pete Casso's Copyright FAQ should be retired and replaced by my much more
concise and short 'ASCII Art and Copyright Laws' (see below).
* How to find ASCII Art
Joan Stark's 'Read before requesting' below does pretty much what this does,
but much shorter. (retire it)
* Read before requesting ASCII Art
This might not be much use without it being posted to the newsgroup, so I
think it should become 'finding ASCII art'.
* History of alt.ascii-art
This document is not really a FAQ or informational document, just a rundown
on what went on last year. Should be retired.
* Guide to 'diddling'
After some rewriting this could be useful.
* Registry patch to make Outlook Express do ASCII Art properly(ish)
This is just a quick-bosh-fix for Outlook Express to make it use a
monospaced font and post in plain text, so I'm unsure what to do with it.
Above I refer to documents and say 'see below'... here they are.
Tutorial....
,-,-,-. .
`,| | | ,-. | , . ,-. ,-. . . ,-. . . ,-. ,-. . , , ,-.
| ; | . ,-| |< | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |/|/ | |
' `-' `-^ ' ` ' ' ' `-| `-| `-' `-^ ' `-' ' ' ' '
,| /|
`' `-'
,. .---. ,--. ,-_/ ,-_/ ,. .
/ | \___ | `-' ' | ' | / | ,-. |-
/~~|-. \ | . .^ | .^ | /~~|-. | |
,' `-' `---' `--' `--' `--' ,' `-' ' `'
A short tutorial on making and posting ASCII Art
By Martin Atkins (March 1999)
This document was based on 'Make a Start in ASCII Art' by Daniel Au
Stop before asking for an ascii picture of a whatever, or ascii for a
logo... wouldn't it be more fun to make your own? Perhaps you could
create a beautiful piece of ASCII Artwork and share it with us all at
alt.ascii-art!
If you would like to learn how to make ascii art, this tutorial should
help you get started.
-._.-> Quick Start
"""""""""""
You don't need a special program to make ASCII Art, you can make it in
any text editor, or another program that allows you to type characters
from the keyboard.
You should, however, make sure that it is producing plain text (no
colours, bold etc) and is set to a monospaced font. A monospaced (or
fixed width) font is one where all of the characters are the same
width.
In a monospaced font, these two lines will be the same length:
MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM|
IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII|
If they aren't, then you aren't using a monospaced font. Experiment
with available fonts until you find one that makes those two lines
match up.
-._.-> Making a picture
""""""""""""""""
The best way to pick up ascii art is to try it. Find a nice text editor
(most computers will have one, look for Notepad, Edit, Nisus, Ed...)
and load it up.
Just fiddle around a little to get a feel of what shapes each character
makes, and then try to put them together to make a shape:
o
-|- ASCII Art Stickman!
/ \
Try making this stickman do things, like...
o/ o
'| Waving... -|- o or Kicking a ball!
/ \ |'.
Now look around where you are now... can you see anything interesting
to make an ascii art of? Computers make very good 'first pictures',
because they are mostly rectangular and so easy to shape. Have a go at
showing your computer in ASCII Art. Try not to produce *exactly* what
you see, but enough detail that the eye assumes the extra detail. This
takes some practice, but once you've mastered it you can make almost
anything!
How about a person? This is a good thing to do next. The best place to
start is not a specific person, but a generic one ... that way you can
concentrate on forming a person-shape without worrying about the exact
details of a person and possibly offending them!
I've gone for a cartoony sort of person, since less details are needed
to produce it. Let's start with the head...
/"""""\
| (o|o) |
| _\ |
| '---' |
\_____/ mga
| |
See how you see a human face, but know that it's very unlikely you will
ever meet anyone who looks like this? This is what I mean by not
producing exactly what something looks like.
Let's continue the picture...
/"""""\
| (o|o) |
| _\ |
| '---' |
\_____/
___| |___
/ '-' \
| . . |
| | | |
| | | |
\_|_____|_/
/_| |_\
| .-. |
| | | |
'._| |_.'
/__| |__\ mga
Since it is a cartoon, I didn't worry too much about the proportions.
If this was a serious picture, the legs would be far too short for the
rest if the body, but you get the general idea.
-._.-> Diagonal Lines
Notice on the bottom of the trousers I have used the full stop and
apostrophe characters to produce I greater diagonal line than the slash
offers. This is the basis for producing lines in ascii art. This one
takes some time to master, but here are some lines to show you how to
construct a few 'odd' angles...
| | / ,' ,-' _,-'
| .' / ,' ,-' _,-'
| | / ,' ,-' _,-' __..--""
| .' / ,' ,-' _,-' __..--""
| | / ,' ,-' ,-' __..--"" _______________
-._.-> Adding more detail
We can make our picture more interesting by adding some extra details.
Just add anything that makes the picture look more like what it's meant
to be, or looks cool.
I'll just make a minor adjustment...
/"""""\
| (o|o) |
| _\ |
| '---' |
\_____/
___| |___
/ '-' \
| . . | What young person would be seen
| |Robik| | without his expensive brand-name
| | './ | | sweatshirt?
\_|_____|_/
/_| |_\
| .-. |
| | | |
'._| |_.'
/__| |__\ mga
-._.-> Background detail
At the moment, our person is standing in a blank void. Why don't we add
some interesting backdrop to the picture?
Since my picture is of a young man, where better to stand him than in
front of a shop in town?
-----------------------------------.---------.----------
.----------. | .-----. ||"""""""""
.-------. .------ /"""""\ | | | ||
|FOREMEN| |..-.-.| (o|o) | _| | | ||
|WANTED | |_.=-.-| _\ | / | | | ||
'-------' '----- | '---' | |""| | | ||
.------. .-----. \_____/ | | '-. | ||
|.----.| |ASCII ___| |___ |""| | | ||_________
||Sulk|| |MONTH / '-' \ | | .-' | |__________
||Kit || ||""| | . . | |""| | | |__|___|___
_________________ | |Robik| | |__| | | ||___|___|_
================= | | './ | | ===| |mga | |__|___|___
\_|_____|_/ | '-----' ||___|___|_
__________________ /_| |_\ ____|_________|__|___|___
/ | .-. |
| | | | /
/ '._| |_.' /
/ /__| |__\
________________________________________________________
___/_________/________/________/_______/_______/______/_
___|_________|________|________|_______|_______|______|_
And here we have what is a pretty good ascii are picture! With more
tweaking it can be made even better.
-._.-> Finishing it off
You may have noticed that in the example pictures above there are three
letters floating about apparently for no reason... 'mga'.
When you make ascii art, should put your name or initials somewhere on
it to identify it as yours. My initials are mga, which is where the mga
comes from!
Try to find a place where the initials don't spoil the picture, like on
a wall, or a screen...
-._.-> Going public... releasing your picture to alt.ascii-art!
Once you are happy with your picture, and have added your initials, you
can post it to alt.ascii-art. Paste it into your newsreader's message
composition window. Check that it is plain text (no colours or styles)
and in a monospaced font before posting.
You might want to mention that this is your first pic when you post it.
Check back to alt.ascii-art a few days later, and you may find that
some people have responded to your picture. They may have written a
'Cool pic!' type message, in which case you did it right! Do some more!
The other possibility is that someone is offering a suggestion for
improvement. This will come in one of two forms:
* Diddling
'Diddling' is when someone takes your picture, and changes it a
little. You shouldn't take offense at this (unless your pic has been
made offensive of course), just take heed to the suggestions and
bear them in mind for your future pictures.
* Textual Suggestion
Someone may make a suggestion like 'try to smooth out the corners
with a full stop', or 'try using a | instead of a : for vertical
lines'. These are just friendly suggestions, which you may choose to
bear in mind when you create future pictures.
Whether everyone loves your pic, or they offer suggestions, you should
still continue to produce more pics. Remember practice makes, if not
perfect, at least pretty good!
-._.-> Learning from others
The best way to learn is by example. Take a look at the ascii art in
alt.ascii-art. Note how different artists have used certain characters
to produce different shapes.
You can try some of the techniques used by other artists, and will
probably develop your own 'style' of ascii art. You can see differences
between how each artists create ascii art, some are subtle while others
are blatently obvious. Just practice and you'll get there!
-._.-> In conclusion
Anyone can create ASCII Art with a little perseverance. If you find
yourself bitten by the ASCII Art bug, please post your pictures to
alt.ascii-art - we'd love to see them!
============
and now the copyright one...
,. .---. ,--. ,-_/ ,-_/ ,. . .
/ | \___ | `-' ' | ' | / | ,-. |- ,-. ,-. ,-|
/~~|-. \ | . .^ | .^ | /~~|-. | | ,-| | | | |
,' `-' `---' `--' `--' `--' ,' `-' ' `' `-^ ' ' `-^
,--. . . ,
| `-' ,-. ,-. . . ,-. . ,-. |-. |- ) ,-. . , , ,-.
| . | | | | | | | | | | | | | / ,-| |/|/ `-.
`--' `-' |-' `-| ' ' `-| ' ' `' `--' `-^ ' ' `-'
| /| ,|
' `-' `' By Martin Atkins
This document describes how copyright laws affect ASCII Art.
Facts about ASCII Art copyright:
* ASCII Art is copyrighted.
* Just because ASCII Art is posted to the Internet, doesn't make it
public domain.
* Fair Use allows you to quote ascii pictures when replying to messages
to comment on them.
* An ascii picture based on a logo, other ascii picture, photo, diagram
etc is a copyright infringement, but that is rarely inforced.
* While ASCII Art has no commercial value, it is still a violation to
distribute it without permission.
However, on alt.ascii-art these are usually the case:
* Most ascii artists don't mind you copying their art and distributing
it, so long as the initials/name are left intact.
* Deriving your work from other pictures (diddling) is usually accepted
gratefully.
* Creating ascii pictures from tv programs, logos, photos etc is
usually ok by the copyright holders (but do check if in doubt!)
Notice the *usually* - Creators of pics are allowed to protect them and
the creators of things that you do an ascii picture of are perfectly
within their rights to sue you.
This document was written with the aid of the 'Copyright Myths FAQ: 10
big myths about copyright explained' which is at:
http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html
*** End very, very, very long post! ***
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
I know there is alot of scrolling to do to read my input, but please take the time to find it. There are some issues bigger than any of us that we need to keep in mind. I didn't think of them until now! But I really feel we need to address them. Martin Atkins wrote in message <36f...@news.vossnet.net>... >.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: >| >|OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again. >| >'------------------------ > >Things have been discussed. I now feel it is time to clarify a few things >and to bring together the current ideas and suggestions together, which is >the perpose of this post. I will add a few more questions that have come to >light since the thread started, too. >So, what follows is a munge together of all of the opinions I have seen >posted so far. > >.------------------------ >|The questions now are... >|1. Which ones get posted? >'------------------------ >The general concencus (ikky spelling) is that only the '[faq] New to ASCII >Art? Read this!' document by Matthew should be posted to the newsgroup, and >that it should contain addresses of other sites where faq documents are >located. All FAQ document sites should be *identical* in filenames, page >content, everything... so that the faq can say at the start... > >Throughout this document, files ending in .txt may be referred to. These can >be found at the following sites: >http://martweb.hypermart.net/aaafaq/ (Seattle, America) >http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/aaafaq/ (Langley, UK) >http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/ (Somewhere, UK) >.... etc > >and then the faq can say something like... > >see aaaminifaq.txt for a more detailed list of fonts... > >(all this is theoretical and these are purely examples) > > >.------------------------ >|2. Who posts them (I'm happy to keep this job) >'------------------------ >It seems that I still have this job, although only Donovan has confirmed >this to my knowledge. > >.------------------------ >|3. How often they are posted >'------------------------ >Everyone seems happy with a week, more or less. Suggested times have ranged >from weekly to bi-weekly, but everyone said that weekly was OK. > >.------------------------ >|4. How the ones that aren't posted will be 'advertised' >'------------------------ >These should be referenced in the Main FAQ, along with the list of sites on >which all of these documents are located. (see under question 1 above for >more). This means that all mirror sites will have to have all of the files, >or nothing at all... and have identical filenames. > >.------------------------ >|5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site. >'------------------------ >This really has to wait until we've answered the new questions and agreed on >the above ones. > >These 'new questions' basically are... > >1. We have a whole lot of documents here. Is it worth keeping the old ones? Only if they are necessary and help someone who wants to learn it all. I feel you can answer the question or heading in a simple and quick way, but further in to that same heading should be the complete info that we have collected through the years. Keep the good and throw out the bad. The question I use in determining this is, "Did knowing this info make me more knowledgeable about the subject matter?" If the answer is yes than it must stay in or be added. One reason for this is someday we will all be gone but this info is our gift to the future artists and generations. We all know someday the internet world will try to squeeze the ascii-art out of us (like IE4 and IE5), so we need to collect and pass along any and all good info we can. >2. Some of the 'current' ones will need rewriting (alt.ascii-art documents >list springs to mind) ... how will this be handled? IF it is at all possible to contact the original writer and get permission then that is what we do. If not we give that person credit and update the info keeping the good sections as close as possible. If that isn't a very good idea, pass on some of the sections that need a rewrite and let some of us help out. Most of us regulars are very litterate and can do a good job. Plus it looks good to have many different people's name in FAQ's, because it shows a group effort and consensus. I volunteer to do any work on this FAQ that I am asked to do. Mathew and Martin can always go through them and fix it up. I would be fine with that. >3. Are we to have mirrors of all of our agreed documents identically, or >just on a 'whatever owner decides to put up' basis as we have now, with all >of the sites doing it differently. I think the layout of the txt document should stay very close to the original. As far as all having the same name file name. NO WAY! We as a group worked hard to get the word out. We are everywhere in the search engines. This would litereally kill the availability that we have gotten to at this point. Also, all of those websites would now have to be updated. If they are not it would leave a bad taste for those who are interested in getting invovled in ascii-art. THAT SHOULD BE OUR BIGGEST CONCERN! WE NEED MORE PEOPLE TO FEEL WELCOME AND WANT TO PARTICIPATE TO KEEP OUR ART ALIVE! Sorry about shouting but we do have people who treat newcombers poorly. And we all know what that does to the newcombers. C-ya! >4. Who will be responsible for maintaining the list of FAQ documents, and >mailing it out to everybody who has a mirror? (I volunteer for this job, >since I already have most of the required stuff set up and ready.) Stay with it bro! Your heart is in it for the long haul and I think we all know that! >and of course, again... >5. Who will have a mirror site? >But this one will have to wait until everything else is decided. I really think you need to have a descent list. So, that there is always one available. I would hate to not have mine added, but so would any of us who have worked on them. Just make sure the ones you continue to add to the FAQ's are current, that should really determine that. >*** Things to bear in mind *** >Some people have systems that are only capable of 8.3 filenames (that is >filenames with eight letters, then a dot, then three more). >Some web hosting sites don't allow you to use subdirectories. >It needs to be as small as possible for fast downloads and minimal web space >usage on people with limited space. See my number 3 answer! >I will post another summary message like this after these new points have >been discussed a little. After that, I think we should have a little time to >humm over the final decisions before they are 'set in stone' as it were. Good idea! >One point that has arisen is that Matthew Thomas is now taking about mirrors >of just his FAQ document (i think). If this was to happen, it could get a >little complicated. It is my feeling that things should wait until >everything has been finalised, but since Matthew has already started work on >the FAQ version 3, it would be a good idea for all of the people who are >considering mirroring all of the documents to take Matthew's new version for >now, and put it where you would put all of the others, and call it what >everyone else will. I propose aaafaq.txt for this, since that is what I've >been using on my current 'mirror-ish' sites, but that's something else that >needs deciding really. See number 3 above. Plus if it turns out long and (really should just have one FAQ) we should be encouraged to have a linked version for easier viewing and reading and navigation. >(Opinions stated in the first part of this message are an amalgamation of >other peoples comments, not mine. However, later on I add my opinions. Use >your common sense to tell the difference! <g>) >Once it's been chewed over a little more with the new questions, I'll post a >final proposal based on everyone's ideas. > >More of my Opinions >------------------- >Matthew is currently updating his FAQ to version 3. I think that while we >are revamping the FAQ arrangements we should also revamp the documents >themselves. >I propose that we do these things... > >Produce a FAQ site in a similar fashion to the one I've been going on about >constantly since this discussion started (sorry 'bout that), then take all >of the old FAQ documents on there and decide if a new document does it's job >for it (eg Scarecrow's ASCII FAQ has been superseded by Matthew Thomas'). >We should then retire the old documents and put them on a separate page of >links on the FAQ site (making it clear that they are old and are there for >perposes of archiving only, and that there is more up-to-date info in the >newer documents.) >We should make sure that all of the 'current' documents are given a revamp, >too, and adapted to fit the new arrangements. Where the author of the (hmm >as I was writing this an hour of time mysteriously disappeared... <g>) >document is still around on a.a-a they should do the rewriting, or in the >case of documents such as those of our beloved departed Colin people should >be nominated to produce a better version. In some cases (such as 'WARNING: >Control Codes') these old documents are being incorporated into the main >FAQ, so won't need rewriting as such. One document to do it all! Please! It is the right thing to do...think of the folks who can't go to websites and read "the extras". There are more systems out there like that than you think. Remember the more people the better! Even the getting started in Ascii-art is a fantastic feature that should be in the FAQ's. If it makes us smarter about the subject, it should be added. >Proposals... >* The ASCII Art FAQ >Let Matthew update this as he is now, but with whatever mirroring >arrangements we decide on reflected in it. > >* alt.ascii-art Documents List >This will be no longer necessary, as the main FAQ and the web site (mirrors) >will contain the information that used to be here. > >* Scarecrow's ASCII Art FAQ (old) >This should be retired to the 'old' page. > >* Jorn Barger's Technical ASCII Art FAQ (old) >This too. > >* WARNING: Control Codes >Matthew is incorporating this information into v3 of his FAQ, so this can be >retired. > >* All you need for ASCII Art: Monospaced Fonts, Text Editors and ASCII >Utils! >I think that this document is still forfilling a useful function and so >should be put on the FAQ sites and linked from the main FAQ. Should be >revamped > >* Tutorial: Making a Start in ASCII Art >This should be retired and superseded by my new tutorial (see below) > >* ASCII Art not looking right? Read this! >Matthew plans to incorporate this into his FAQ, so this should be retired. > >* Copyright FAQ >Pete Casso's Copyright FAQ should be retired and replaced by my much more >concise and short 'ASCII Art and Copyright Laws' (see below). > >* How to find ASCII Art >Joan Stark's 'Read before requesting' below does pretty much what this does, >but much shorter. (retire it) > >* Read before requesting ASCII Art >This might not be much use without it being posted to the newsgroup, so I >think it should become 'finding ASCII art'. > >* History of alt.ascii-art >This document is not really a FAQ or informational document, just a rundown >on what went on last year. Should be retired. > >* Guide to 'diddling' >After some rewriting this could be useful. > >* Registry patch to make Outlook Express do ASCII Art properly(ish) >This is just a quick-bosh-fix for Outlook Express to make it use a >monospaced font and post in plain text, so I'm unsure what to do with it. > >Above I refer to documents and say 'see below'... here they are. > >Tutorial.... > > ,-,-,-. . > `,| | | ,-. | , . ,-. ,-. . . ,-. . . ,-. ,-. . , , ,-. > | ; | . ,-| |< | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |/|/ | | > ' `-' `-^ ' ` ' ' ' `-| `-| `-' `-^ ' `-' ' ' ' ' > ,| /| > `' `-' > ,. .---. ,--. ,-_/ ,-_/ ,. . > / | \___ | `-' ' | ' | / | ,-. |- > /~~|-. \ | . .^ | .^ | /~~|-. | | > ,' `-' `---' `--' `--' `--' ,' `-' ' `' > A short tutorial on making and posting ASCII Art > By Martin Atkins (March 1999) > > This document was based on 'Make a Start in ASCII Art' by Daniel Au > >Stop before asking for an ascii picture of a whatever, or ascii for a >logo... wouldn't it be more fun to make your own? Perhaps you could >create a beautiful piece of ASCII Artwork and share it with us all at >alt.ascii-art! >If you would like to learn how to make ascii art, this tutorial should >help you get started. > >-._.-> Quick Start > """"""""""" >You don't need a special program to make ASCII Art, you can make it in >any text editor, or another program that allows you to type characters >from the keyboard. > >You should, however, make sure that it is producing plain text (no >colours, bold etc) and is set to a monospaced font. A monospaced (or >fixed width) font is one where all of the characters are the same >width. > >In a monospaced font, these two lines will be the same length: >MMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM| >IIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII| >If they aren't, then you aren't using a monospaced font. Experiment >with available fonts until you find one that makes those two lines >match up. > >-._.-> Making a picture > """""""""""""""" > >The best way to pick up ascii art is to try it. Find a nice text editor >(most computers will have one, look for Notepad, Edit, Nisus, Ed...) >and load it up. > >Just fiddle around a little to get a feel of what shapes each character >makes, and then try to put them together to make a shape: > > o > -|- ASCII Art Stickman! > / \ > >Try making this stickman do things, like... > > o/ o > '| Waving... -|- o or Kicking a ball! > / \ |'. > >Now look around where you are now... can you see anything interesting >to make an ascii art of? Computers make very good 'first pictures', >because they are mostly rectangular and so easy to shape. Have a go at >showing your computer in ASCII Art. Try not to produce *exactly* what >you see, but enough detail that the eye assumes the extra detail. This >takes some practice, but once you've mastered it you can make almost >anything! > >How about a person? This is a good thing to do next. The best place to >start is not a specific person, but a generic one ... that way you can >concentrate on forming a person-shape without worrying about the exact >details of a person and possibly offending them! > >I've gone for a cartoony sort of person, since less details are needed >to produce it. Let's start with the head... > > > /"""""\ > | (o|o) | > | _\ | > | '---' | > \_____/ mga > | | > >See how you see a human face, but know that it's very unlikely you will >ever meet anyone who looks like this? This is what I mean by not >producing exactly what something looks like. > >Let's continue the picture... > > /"""""\ > | (o|o) | > | _\ | > | '---' | > \_____/ > ___| |___ > / '-' \ > | . . | > | | | | > | | | | > \_|_____|_/ > /_| |_\ > | .-. | > | | | | > '._| |_.' > /__| |__\ mga > > >Since it is a cartoon, I didn't worry too much about the proportions. >If this was a serious picture, the legs would be far too short for the >rest if the body, but you get the general idea. > >-._.-> Diagonal Lines > >Notice on the bottom of the trousers I have used the full stop and >apostrophe characters to produce I greater diagonal line than the slash >offers. This is the basis for producing lines in ascii art. This one >takes some time to master, but here are some lines to show you how to >construct a few 'odd' angles... > > > | | / ,' ,-' _,-' > | .' / ,' ,-' _,-' > | | / ,' ,-' _,-' __..--"" > | .' / ,' ,-' _,-' __..--"" > | | / ,' ,-' ,-' __..--"" _______________ > > >-._.-> Adding more detail > >We can make our picture more interesting by adding some extra details. >Just add anything that makes the picture look more like what it's meant >to be, or looks cool. >I'll just make a minor adjustment... > > /"""""\ > | (o|o) | > | _\ | > | '---' | > \_____/ > ___| |___ > / '-' \ > | . . | What young person would be seen > | |Robik| | without his expensive brand-name > | | './ | | sweatshirt? > \_|_____|_/ > /_| |_\ > | .-. | > | | | | > '._| |_.' > /__| |__\ mga > >-._.-> Background detail > >At the moment, our person is standing in a blank void. Why don't we add >some interesting backdrop to the picture? >Since my picture is of a young man, where better to stand him than in >front of a shop in town? >-----------------------------------.---------.---------- > .----------. | .-----. ||""""""""" > .-------. .------ /"""""\ | | | || > |FOREMEN| |..-.-.| (o|o) | _| | | || > |WANTED | |_.=-.-| _\ | / | | | || > '-------' '----- | '---' | |""| | | || >.------. .-----. \_____/ | | '-. | || >|.----.| |ASCII ___| |___ |""| | | ||_________ >||Sulk|| |MONTH / '-' \ | | .-' | |__________ >||Kit || ||""| | . . | |""| | | |__|___|___ >_________________ | |Robik| | |__| | | ||___|___|_ >================= | | './ | | ===| |mga | |__|___|___ > \_|_____|_/ | '-----' ||___|___|_ >__________________ /_| |_\ ____|_________|__|___|___ > / | .-. | > | | | | / > / '._| |_.' / > / /__| |__\ >________________________________________________________ >___/_________/________/________/_______/_______/______/_ >___|_________|________|________|_______|_______|______|_ > > >And here we have what is a pretty good ascii are picture! With more >tweaking it can be made even better. > >-._.-> Finishing it off > >You may have noticed that in the example pictures above there are three >letters floating about apparently for no reason... 'mga'. >When you make ascii art, should put your name or initials somewhere on >it to identify it as yours. My initials are mga, which is where the mga >comes from! >Try to find a place where the initials don't spoil the picture, like on >a wall, or a screen... > >-._.-> Going public... releasing your picture to alt.ascii-art! > >Once you are happy with your picture, and have added your initials, you >can post it to alt.ascii-art. Paste it into your newsreader's message >composition window. Check that it is plain text (no colours or styles) >and in a monospaced font before posting. >You might want to mention that this is your first pic when you post it. > >Check back to alt.ascii-art a few days later, and you may find that >some people have responded to your picture. They may have written a >'Cool pic!' type message, in which case you did it right! Do some more! >The other possibility is that someone is offering a suggestion for >improvement. This will come in one of two forms: >* Diddling > 'Diddling' is when someone takes your picture, and changes it a > little. You shouldn't take offense at this (unless your pic has been > made offensive of course), just take heed to the suggestions and > bear them in mind for your future pictures. >* Textual Suggestion > Someone may make a suggestion like 'try to smooth out the corners > with a full stop', or 'try using a | instead of a : for vertical > lines'. These are just friendly suggestions, which you may choose to > bear in mind when you create future pictures. > >Whether everyone loves your pic, or they offer suggestions, you should >still continue to produce more pics. Remember practice makes, if not >perfect, at least pretty good! > >-._.-> Learning from others > >The best way to learn is by example. Take a look at the ascii art in >alt.ascii-art. Note how different artists have used certain characters >to produce different shapes. >You can try some of the techniques used by other artists, and will >probably develop your own 'style' of ascii art. You can see differences >between how each artists create ascii art, some are subtle while others >are blatently obvious. Just practice and you'll get there! > >-._.-> In conclusion > >Anyone can create ASCII Art with a little perseverance. If you find >yourself bitten by the ASCII Art bug, please post your pictures to >alt.ascii-art - we'd love to see them! > >============ > >and now the copyright one... > > ,. .---. ,--. ,-_/ ,-_/ ,. . . > / | \___ | `-' ' | ' | / | ,-. |- ,-. ,-. ,-| > /~~|-. \ | . .^ | .^ | /~~|-. | | ,-| | | | | > ,' `-' `---' `--' `--' `--' ,' `-' ' `' `-^ ' ' `-^ > ,--. . . , > | `-' ,-. ,-. . . ,-. . ,-. |-. |- ) ,-. . , , ,-. > | . | | | | | | | | | | | | | / ,-| |/|/ `-. > `--' `-' |-' `-| ' ' `-| ' ' `' `--' `-^ ' ' `-' > | /| ,| > ' `-' `' By Martin Atkins > > >This document describes how copyright laws affect ASCII Art. > >Facts about ASCII Art copyright: >* ASCII Art is copyrighted. >* Just because ASCII Art is posted to the Internet, doesn't make it > public domain. >* Fair Use allows you to quote ascii pictures when replying to messages > to comment on them. >* An ascii picture based on a logo, other ascii picture, photo, diagram > etc is a copyright infringement, but that is rarely inforced. >* While ASCII Art has no commercial value, it is still a violation to > distribute it without permission. > >However, on alt.ascii-art these are usually the case: >* Most ascii artists don't mind you copying their art and distributing > it, so long as the initials/name are left intact. >* Deriving your work from other pictures (diddling) is usually accepted > gratefully. >* Creating ascii pictures from tv programs, logos, photos etc is > usually ok by the copyright holders (but do check if in doubt!) > >Notice the *usually* - Creators of pics are allowed to protect them and >the creators of things that you do an ascii picture of are perfectly >within their rights to sue you. >This document was written with the aid of the 'Copyright Myths FAQ: 10 >big myths about copyright explained' which is at: >http://www.clari.net/brad/copymyths.html > > >*** End very, very, very long post! *** > >-Martin > ______ ----. > .' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------. > -"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========| > .-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins| > .-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ | > / '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com| > / \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========| > | .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13| > _ | / '. | | |---------------------------------| > / '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####| > ( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####| > \_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####| > ' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------' > '__________/ mga '____\\
.----- On Mon, 29 Mar 1999 18:05:15 +0200, Veronica Karlsson posted:
|
|> I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really
|> be identical as far as possible,
|
|Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage
|layout for them?
'------------------------------
I disagree. The term mirror means that it's identical. I don't look green in
some mirrors (except on really bad mornings) - I always look like I am.
I think that the FAQ mirrors should be an entirely separate section of the
site, in a different directory if that is possible with the hosting service
in use, and should not have any relating links to site owner's homepage.
Look at http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/, then put /aaafaq/ on the end
of the URL --- no similarity there, and the faq site doesn't even acknoledge
the existance of 'MartWEB' because exactly the same documents are at
http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/.
Incidentally, that site is my proposal for the 'consistant style' of site
that I said I thought was important in the other post.
.------------------------------
|> for the perposes of easy linking and things
|> (for example always keeping the same filenames so when a question is asked
|> and we quote a URL for the answer, we know what file to link to) at the
|> moment I have ascfaq.htm on one site, aaafaq.htm on another, and aaafaq.txt
|> on another. Others I have seen are faq.htm, asciifaq.html etc etc... this,
|> while probably seeming a bit pedantic and pointless should make things a
|> little easier.
|
|The file name thing I can agree with, however.
|
'------------------------------
Good, I don't need to try to convince you on this one.
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
Martin Atkins wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > > > I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really > > > be identical as far as possible, > > > > Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage > > layout for them? > > I disagree. The term mirror means that it's identical. Then don't use the word "mirror". > I don't look green in > some mirrors (except on really bad mornings) - I always look like I am. > I think that the FAQ mirrors should be an entirely separate section of the > site, in a different directory if that is possible with the hosting service > in use, and should not have any relating links to site owner's homepage. Not my logo at the top and my "navigation links" at the bottom = not on my site, period. I will still keep a bunch of ascii art FAQ files on my site, but they will not be part of your system. > Look at http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/, then put /aaafaq/ on the end > of the URL --- no similarity there, and the faq site doesn't even acknoledge > the existance of 'MartWEB' because exactly the same documents are at > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/. > > Incidentally, that site is my proposal for the 'consistant style' of site > that I said I thought was important in the other post. > Linkblue text on a glaring white background?! No thanks! -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
Ilmari Karonen wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > : I said that each person should be able to choose how they want to format > : their copy. I.e. what colours to use, what kind of file to use, if they > : want to use <p> or <pre> for ordinairy text, if they want to use CSS, > : etc. It's all just looks. What matters is the content. > > I agree with that if and only if sufficiently narrow limits are placed on > what changes can be made. I've seen too many sites where the style itself > - even if entirely approprite for the main content and reader profile of > said site - makes reading a FAQ a pain. I think that's just a case of some people having talent/skill for doing things that other people can read and some people not having that talent/skill. In some cases it's a sign of somebody trying to hard to make something that "looks professional" and in some cases it's a sign of somebody _learning_ and making some mistakes (i.e. some will learn, some will not). Also, different people have different taste. Some people find it difficult to read certain colour combinations or small text. Having the FAQ presented in different ways on different sites would make it potentially more readable, IMO. > Think dark green 7pt "fancy" font on black starfield background, width > limited to 400 pixels, enclosed in a table in order to top it all with a > graphically intensive navigation column. *brrr!* > Maybe none of us would do that to the FAQ, but maybe someone would. > Besides, there are several other points: > > * A FAQ file should above all be as readable as possible. The reader's > default setting usually get closer to that than anything the page > designer can provide. Not everyone wants to override author styles even > if they do prefer their FAQs simple and legible. Mhmm... Define "as readable as possible"! I had a LONG discussion about this with a graphic designer once. My argument: Don't change fonts! Those readers who care will have set their browsers to use a font that is "optimal" for them, in some way. Those who don't care - DON'T CARE! Her argument: Always use font X! Studies made by scientific institutes Y and Z have shown that fonts of the same type as X is more readable than other fonts, and font X is our company standard. My argument: Don't set a fixed width on a web page! Let the HTML "flow"! Let it be flexible and adapt to the situation! It is up to each reader to set his or her browser so that it shows text in a readable way. Her argument: Always set a fixed width on a web page! Studies made by scientific institutes Y and Z have shown that text should have a certain amount of words on each line to be more readable. Given that you use font X and font size Q you know how wide the text is and can calculate a suitable width for the document. Who is right? Who is wrong? We both had good, solid arguments for our different ways of doing things. Before we can have any discussion about how to write this to be "as readable as possible" we must define what we mean by that, OR we could each do it our own way. For example, I look at llizard's use of <FONT> as Outdated, she sees my use of CSS as Bad. There is no way you're going to get us both to agree on ONE format! > * If the FAQs are updated anywhere near frequently, the HTML for each > mirror should be identical. Of course, a LINK element could be used to > add site-specific styles, but this still imposes limits in any case. The HTML of the main body of content, yes. But if I find something like: <a name="figlet"></a> <h3>What is Figlet?</h3> I WILL change that to: <h3><a name="figlet">What is Figlet?</a></h3> (or if I find a <font> tag in there that too will get snipped out...) Also, I see a typical HTML document as consisting of three parts: +-------------+ | top part | +-------------+ +-------------+ | middle part | | (content) | | | +-------------+ +-------------+ | end part | +-------------+ OK, on some sites they have the "top part" in a box down along the left side of the page, but the main idea is still the same. What I think the FAQ people should do is provide the middle part, the content, and let each person put whatever top and end part on as they like. Here's an example of what I mean: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/example.html The top part consists of the usual <head> code, plus a logo and a black line. The middle part consists of the words "Example Page, Content goes here". The end part consists of another black line and some "navigation" links. > * Relating to the previous point, IMHO the whole point of mirroring is > that the mirrors should be identical, not varying interpretations of > the base document. The way I see it, if the author of the original page > wants BODY { text-color: green; } then green text it shall be, but not > otherwise. If the author insists on any specific colours, etc, I will not be part of this "mirroring" business. > * Besides, people expect informational decuments to be simple and without > distractions. I can agree with that. > Just because I can read the FAQ just as easily in purple > text doesn't mean that the unexpected color change wouln't be an > incovenience if I was browsing around for info on, say, configuring OE4 > to show ascii art properly. THAT argument belongs in the "To CSS or not to CSS?" debate. > The key here is relevancy. I'd have no problems with a big animated GIF if > it was useful for illustrating a particular answer. But such decisions are > up to the FAQ author, not to the mirror providers. If somebody wants to be stupid an put an animated background on their page, I won't try to stop them. If they try to put that same animated background on MY page, then I'd rather not have anything to do with them. Again, you will not be able to find as much as one "look", not even one colour combination, that everybody here can agree with. > I'm not saying some allowances couldn't be made. For example a > site-specific navigation bar at the bottom shouldn't be too bad, though > just a simple link might suffice. I suppose we'll have to allow GeoGuides > too.. :-( > Mmmm... :( > Anyway, that's just my view. If those with the power (the FAQ author(s)) > decide that mirrors may use their own styles, then I won't complain. But > my copy (if I'm allowed one, that is) will still be faithful to the > original, and I hope just for the readers' sake that the central mirror > list will mark mirrors as either original or modified. If you want to keep Your copy identical to the original, that should be your choice, but don't try to force that same choice on the rest of us. If somebody decides to change the wording in the _content_ of one of the documents however... >:-( -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
In article <370...@earthling.net>, Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> wrote: > > Martin Atkins wrote: > > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > > > > I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really > > > > be identical as far as possible, > > > > > > Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage > > > layout for them? > > [snip] > > Look at http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/, then put /aaafaq/ on the end > > of the URL --- no similarity there, and the faq site doesn't even acknoledge > > the existance of 'MartWEB' because exactly the same documents are at > > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/. > > > > Incidentally, that site is my proposal for the 'consistant style' of site > > that I said I thought was important in the other post. > > > > Linkblue text on a glaring white background?! No thanks! > > -- > (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ > / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! Okay, here's what I think. The FAQ should be primarily a text document so that it can be viewed by all browsers. There should be no distracting images used. The basic layout should stay exactly the same. The background and the text colours can be left up to the individual site owner, as long as the text and links are in contrasting colours to the background. For instance, I did not see this Linkblue text on a glaring white background that Veronica mentioned. I saw the default grey background, default black text, default linkblue that is in my Netscape Navigator 3.04 (Have I already mentioned that upgrading is not an option right now?). But I saw the list of FAQ links. And I could read them easily. And that's what matters. ...well, pretty easily. Martin, could you please put a space after each description and make the lines shorter? (breaking the lines after "and" and "can") ............... :_The_ASCII_Art_FAQ_ : This document, written by Matthew Thomas, is the main FAQ list for the newsgroup and : to a lesser extent the other ASCII art newsgroups rec.arts.ascii and alt.ascii-art.animation. : :_alt.ascii-art_Documents_List_ : A list of all of the FAQ documents: what they are, who wrote them and where you can : find them. : _____ | \ | / |%^,/ | \,^%--- |__>_/|\_< \ Hey!!! *I'm* green in the mirror.... > > /|^^ ejm / \ NOTE: I do not pick up my mail from the idirect address. If you are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "freent"; its absense is to stop the torment of automatic mailers. -- llizard aka ejm cq547@freene+.+oron+o.on.ca ha ,^ http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/9334/ ha ---%^^^^^^^^^^ ASCII-ar+, ASCII and gif anima+ions ha / " "
On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 01:32:32 +0200, Veronica Karlsson (aci...@earthling.net) wrote:
: The HTML of the main body of content, yes. But if I find something like:
: <a name="figlet"></a>
: <h3>What is Figlet?</h3>
: I WILL change that to:
: <h3><a name="figlet">What is Figlet?</a></h3>
: (or if I find a <font> tag in there that too will get snipped out...)
Yes, I'd prefer to do so too, but I'd probably mail the author of the
document and ask for a fix/compromise to be made. If they refused, then
I'd have to think about whether I want to have that document on my site.
: What I think the FAQ people should do is provide the middle part, the
: content, and let each person put whatever top and end part on as they
: like.
: Here's an example of what I mean:
: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/example.html
Ok, I can completely agree with that. As long as the top and bottom parts
don't make the middle part harder to view, I have nothing against that. Of
course, the less the better. (Explicit reminder: my opinions don't count,
except as advice, as long as I'm not the author.)
: If the author insists on any specific colours, etc, I will not be part
: of this "mirroring" business.
That is up to you. The way I see it, the author can refuse to have their
work changed, and the site owner can refuse to host the document. Of
course I hope that no such disagreements appear, but if they do then it's
a take-it-or-leave-it situation.
I do hope that the FAQ authors will not insist on colored text, but if
they actually have some valid reason for that, I'd probably accept it on
my site. OTOH, I see _no_ valid reason for mirror providers to ever insist
on a specific text color.
I suppose what we're both advocating here is moderation and compromise.
It is obvious that the FAQs should be targeted to the widest possible
range of readers. This might mean making different versions, but IMHO it
should be accomplished by making the documents generic enough that no such
variations are needed.
The base FAQs should be written (as much as possible) so, that every
potential mirror provider can accept them on their site. I believe that
this is identical with the previous goal. In turn the modifications to the
mirrors should be small enough that all the mirrors can be considered
identical by the reader.
We can have several identical copies, and several slightly modified ones,
but if we ever do have a green-flyspeck-on-a-starfield version, it should
at the very least be clearly marked as such.
This thread needs ObAscii.. I apparently have yet to reach the top of
Illiad's fan mail queue, but I doubt he'll mind me plugging User Friendly
(http://www.userfriendly.org/) by posting this ascii of the Dust Puppy:
.`:;ij;f,;,
.`;sk568G6itz,-",
.\a\x6P^98^"^986r/,-'
-._sV89" " `88k,-_"
`.-\Q8f 188/,-',
.-_J88| o o |88KJ-_.
,-;388l j888[=-
_".>88Y6._ ,J.__.4988E:._"
.;=J98| T"^T^"T |88K;-._
_"Z38|._|_ | _|_.|88R=;.
.'/2l. | """ | ,j8S^._"
'"j^7Z6bouuuod3R^L`-.
,'./jQV9TYVR\[\`".
'|'|! |'|`. "
./ l | \
.'_ _.\ j, `._,.
(_)_)._) (_.__,._)
--
<-- Ilmari Karonen --><-- http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ --><-- ilt...@sci.fi -->
"I am a student at UC Berkeley, and I am taking this class where we have to
go to a news group and ask an "intelligent question"." -- a luser in a.a-a
On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:33:14 -0600, Donovan (don...@misslink.net) wrote: : One document to do it all! Please! It is the right thing to do...think of : the folks who can't go to websites and read "the extras". There are more : systems out there like that than you think. Remember the more people the As I previously stated, I'm willing to provide an e-mail service where you'd send a message to, say, fa...@itz.pp.sci.fi and get one of the FAQs mailed back to you depending on the subject line. I have the necessary scripts in place at req...@itz.pp.sci.fi, but I still haven't heard back from my ISP re: broken formail. I _will_ pester them about it until it works, whether or not that particular script gets used. I'm not paying for a shell account that doesn't work. It's quite a versatile thing - it's actually a remote execution tool with a predefined set of possible commands for security reasons. So I could let people request individual documents, or all of them, or those changed within a specific period, archived with whichever program you choose. And that's just _without_ me modifying the pattern matching code. -- <-- Ilmari Karonen --><-- http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/ --><-- ilt...@sci.fi --> "While many argue that reforming intellectual ``proprety'' law would result in too much upheaval in society, did not eliminating slavery result in the same upheaval?" -- jer...@usa.net in /.
llizard wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > > Martin Atkins wrote: > > > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/. > > > > > > Incidentally, that site is my proposal for the 'consistant style' of site > > > that I said I thought was important in the other post. > > > > > > > Linkblue text on a glaring white background?! No thanks! > > For instance, I did not see this Linkblue text on a glaring white > background that Veronica mentioned. I saw the default grey background, > default black text, default linkblue ... > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/linkblue.gif > But I saw the list of FAQ links. And I could read them easily. And > that's what matters. > I saw the linkblue text and found that difficult to read. I know I can turn it off, and it looks ok that way, but I wouldn't put something like that on my website (and what do people see who have instructed their browsers to not underline links?). >Martin, could you please put a space after each description and make the >lines shorter? (breaking the lines after "and" and "can") You want a space after each description? Should the descriptions be considered to be paragraphs? (and use <p>...) "Make the lines shorter"??? llizard, if you want shorter lines you should not use such a wide window. font-size: 10pt; Hmmm... From what I've heard, that is a Bad Idea. Also, there are different types of documents in the list, some are FAQs, some are tutorials, some are something else. Maybe split it up into more than one list and add some headers to help people find what they're looking for? > > _____ > | \ | / > |%^,/ | \,^%--- > |__>_/|\_< \ Hey!!! *I'm* green in the mirror.... > > > > > /|^^ > ejm / \ > :) -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
Veronica Karlsson wrote: > > http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/linkblue.gif > Without CSS: http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/no_css.gif -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
(I got your email of this, too, but I think a reply in public would be more
effective.. I hope that you don't mind?)
.----- On Tue, 30 Mar 1999 15:33:14 -0600, Donovan posted:
|I know there is alot of scrolling to do to read my input, but please take
|the time to find it. There are some issues bigger than any of us that we
|need to keep in mind. I didn't think of them until now! But I really feel we
|need to address them.
|
|Martin Atkins wrote:
|>Things have been discussed. I now feel it is time to clarify a few things
|>and to bring together the current ideas and suggestions together, which is
|>the perpose of this post. I will add a few more questions that have come to
|>light since the thread started, too.
|>So, what follows is a munge together of all of the opinions I have seen
|>posted so far.
\
> SNIP! Opinions
/
|>
|>
|>These 'new questions' basically are...
|>
|>1. We have a whole lot of documents here. Is it worth keeping the old ones?
|
|Only if they are necessary and help someone who wants to learn it all.
|
|I feel you can answer the question or heading in a simple and quick way, but
|further in to that same heading should be the complete info that we have
|collected through the years. Keep the good and throw out the bad.
'-------------------------
I'm sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting here. Is it (like
Matthew's suggestion) to use the other documents as an extention to the main
FAQ?
.-------------------------
|The question I use in determining this is, "Did knowing this info make me
|more knowledgeable about the subject matter?" If the answer is yes than it
|must stay in or be added. One reason for this is someday we will all be gone
|but this info is our gift to the future artists and generations. We all know
|someday the internet world will try to squeeze the ascii-art out of us (like
|IE4 and IE5), so we need to collect and pass along any and all good info we
|can.
'----------------------
I see what you are getting at, but quite a few of these documents contain
identical or very similar information. Which ones should be kept?
.----------------------
|>2. Some of the 'current' ones will need rewriting (alt.ascii-art documents
|>list springs to mind) ... how will this be handled?
|
|IF it is at all possible to contact the original writer and get permission
|then that is what we do.
'--------------------------
Well, I can easily contact myself. There will be problems with the others
though. I have Daniel Au's email address but not Jorn Barger or Scarecrow,
and obviously contacting Colin Douthwaite is no longer possible.
.---------------------------
|If not we give that person credit and update the info keeping the good
|sections as close as possible.
|If that isn't a very good idea, pass on some of the sections that need a
|rewrite and let some of us help out. Most of us regulars are very litterate
|and can do a good job. Plus it looks good to have many different people's
|name in FAQ's, because it shows a group effort and consensus. I volunteer to
|do any work on this FAQ that I am asked to do. Mathew and Martin can always
|go through them and fix it up. I would be fine with that.
'-----------------------
I think that it would be better to start from the beginning of the document
and rewrite it because when things are added at a later date errors creep in
and things just don't 'read right'. I found this out with my English essay
for school... I added text to it on five occasions and in the end I scrapped
it and wrote it over again because it just spoilt the structure. If such
mess can be caused my one person in a different frame of mind, imagine what
can happen with more than one person all with different opinions and ideas?
.-------------------------
|>3. Are we to have mirrors of all of our agreed documents identically, or
|>just on a 'whatever owner decides to put up' basis as we have now, with all
|>of the sites doing it differently.
|
|I think the layout of the txt document should stay very close to the
|original. As far as all having the same name file name. NO WAY! We as a
|group worked hard to get the word out. We are everywhere in the search
|engines. This would litereally kill the availability that we have gotten to
|at this point. Also, all of those websites would now have to be updated. If
|they are not it would leave a bad taste for those who are interested in
|getting invovled in ascii-art. THAT SHOULD BE OUR BIGGEST CONCERN! WE NEED
|MORE PEOPLE TO FEEL WELCOME AND WANT TO PARTICIPATE TO KEEP OUR ART ALIVE!
|Sorry about shouting but we do have people who treat newcombers poorly. And
|we all know what that does to the newcombers. C-ya!
'---------------------------
Yes, but in the long run having identical filenames will make the site more
usable and the fact that all mirror sites have a link to one another has got
to get it back into the search engines pretty quickly -- there are lots of
free services on the web for getting good web site exposure.
It would be proper to put up a 'this page has been moved into the ADA (see
Matthew's latest FAQ posting) etc etc...
.----------------------------
|>4. Who will be responsible for maintaining the list of FAQ documents, and
|>mailing it out to everybody who has a mirror? (I volunteer for this job,
|>since I already have most of the required stuff set up and ready.)
|
|Stay with it bro! Your heart is in it for the long haul and I think we all
|know that!
'-----------------------
Thanks, Donovan :o) *blushes*
.------------------------
|>and of course, again...
|>5. Who will have a mirror site?
|>But this one will have to wait until everything else is decided.
|
|I really think you need to have a descent list. So, that there is always one
|available. I would hate to not have mine added, but so would any of us who
|have worked on them. Just make sure the ones you continue to add to the
|FAQ's are current, that should really determine that.
'--------------------------
I'll post a separate message about mirror sites shortly, since it would get
lost among the other things in this huge reply.
.----------------------------
|
|>One point that has arisen is that Matthew Thomas is now taking about
|mirrors
|>of just his FAQ document (i think). If this was to happen, it could get a
|>little complicated. It is my feeling that things should wait until
|>everything has been finalised, but since Matthew has already started work
|on
|>the FAQ version 3, it would be a good idea for all of the people who are
|>considering mirroring all of the documents to take Matthew's new version
|for
|>now, and put it where you would put all of the others, and call it what
|>everyone else will. I propose aaafaq.txt for this, since that is what I've
|>been using on my current 'mirror-ish' sites, but that's something else that
|>needs deciding really.
|See number 3 above. Plus if it turns out long and (really should just have
|one FAQ) we should be encouraged to have a linked version for easier viewing
|and reading and navigation.
'----------------------------
Matthew has said that maintaining HTML and text versions is no problem for
him, so this is no longer an issue... there will be two versions available:
plain text and HTMLified. Obv it will be the Plain Text posted to the
newsgroup.
.-----------------------------
|>We should make sure that all of the 'current' documents are given a revamp,
|>too, and adapted to fit the new arrangements. Where the author of the (hmm
|>as I was writing this an hour of time mysteriously disappeared... <g>)
|>document is still around on a.a-a they should do the rewriting, or in the
|>case of documents such as those of our beloved departed Colin people should
|>be nominated to produce a better version. In some cases (such as 'WARNING:
|>Control Codes') these old documents are being incorporated into the main
|>FAQ, so won't need rewriting as such.
|
|One document to do it all! Please! It is the right thing to do...think of
|the folks who can't go to websites and read "the extras". There are more
|systems out there like that than you think. Remember the more people the
|better! Even the getting started in Ascii-art is a fantastic feature that
|should be in the FAQ's. If it makes us smarter about the subject, it should
|be added.
'-------------------------------
Eek.. Up till now everyone was in favour of moving all of the details out of
the FAQ and into separate web documents, and putting simple answers in the
main FAQ with links to more detailed information.
.-------------------------------
\
> SNIP the rest of the quote of me.
/
'-------------------------------
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
|5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site?
'-----------------------------
,. .-,--. ,. ,-,-,-.
/ | ' | \ / | `,| | | . ,-. ,-. ,-. ,-.
/~~|-. , | / /~~|-. | ; | . | | | | | |
,' `-' `-^--' ,' `-' ' `-' ' ' ' `-' '
.---. .
\___ . |- ,-. ,-.
\ | | |-' `-.
`---' ' `' `-' `-'
It's sign up time!
If you would like to host a mirror of the 'ASCII Documents Archive' at your
site, please let me know at my email address...
mart. --. .-- bigfoot. --.
'-- atkins@ --' '-- com -->
(spam protection)
If we think about it, only one GeoCities site needs to host it. I know lots
of people have GeoCities sites, but having lots of GeoCities mirrors would
have no useful purpose so something will need to be worked out. I'm not sure
what to do about this at the moment, and am open to suggestions.
Please note that it would be ideal if you could mirror it on a site capable
of having a /ada/ directory, but obviously that is not essential and I will
use filenames that are carefully selected to avoid clashes with someones
site should they only be allowed one directory.
Please let me know when you email me which town (or area) and country the
web server is in, what your email address is, what your name is, what the
name of the server is and obviously the URL of the directory or homepage
file you will be using.
Please note that due to the way I will be sending these things, your email
address will be known to everyone else who has a mirror. For the majority of
people this won't matter, but tell you just in case.
I will send out a test email soon to all of the mirror people I have to see
if it is working, so if you email me requesting to be added and you don't
get a reply or the test email, let me know somehow.
It would also be handy if you could let me know if you are unable to support
long filenames (ie DOS users with xxxxxxxx.xxx filenames)... it will be a
pain but I will try to accommodate you.
OK, enough rabbit.
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
Sending this to both Martin and newgroup. >|>1. We have a whole lot of documents here. Is it worth keeping the old ones? >| >|Only if they are necessary and help someone who wants to learn it all. >| >|I feel you can answer the question or heading in a simple and quick way, but >|further in to that same heading should be the complete info that we have >|collected through the years. Keep the good and throw out the bad. >'------------------------- >I'm sorry but I'm not exactly sure what you are suggesting here. Is it (like >Matthew's suggestion) to use the other documents as an extention to the main >FAQ? Answer the question in a quick and simple way, then in the same section write all the rest of the info. Simply state, 'For more detailed information on this question read on.' Can you imagine the clicking and browsing that will go on just to read the FAQ's, if you divide it up into links all over the place? ONE DOCUMENT keeps from doing that. AND what if a person wants to print it out and read it later. NO WAY! He will now have to go to every link and print each one. THAT IS NOT USER FRIENDLY. Believe me I know because that is waht I had to do. It really sucked. Just do the complete rewrite and yes, you should have other people help write it. Opinions are not the issue, the info is. Granted a variety of opinoins are good. We can post each section to just get a general consensus of whether it is OK. OR have 2 or 3 editors look over each submission from each section. NO NIT PICKING FOLKS! We need a good document and it will never be 100% Ok for everyone. But close is good! >.------------------------- >|The question I use in determining this is, "Did knowing this info make me >|more knowledgeable about the subject matter?" If the answer is yes than it >|must stay in or be added. One reason for this is someday we will all be gone >|but this info is our gift to the future artists and generations. We all know >|someday the internet world will try to squeeze the ascii-art out of us (like >|IE4 and IE5), so we need to collect and pass along any and all good info we >|can. >'---------------------- >I see what you are getting at, but quite a few of these documents contain >identical or very similar information. Which ones should be kept? Fine do the rewrites and have you and Mathew (as editors) decide which duplicate info gets referenced to a different section or not. Plus when we do a fully linked mirror html version, imagine how nice that will work. >.---------------------- >|>2. Some of the 'current' ones will need rewriting (alt.ascii-art documents >|>list springs to mind) ... how will this be handled? >| >|IF it is at all possible to contact the original writer and get permission >|then that is what we do. >'-------------------------- >Well, I can easily contact myself. There will be problems with the others >though. I have Daniel Au's email address but not Jorn Barger or Scarecrow, >and obviously contacting Colin Douthwaite is no longer possible. Scratch it and do the rewrites and we can just put in there, by so-n-so using info from an aticle written by ????? And if you want to put the original articles link in there by all means do it there. >.------------------------- >|>3. Are we to have mirrors of all of our agreed documents identically, or >|>just on a 'whatever owner decides to put up' basis as we have now, with all >|>of the sites doing it differently. >| >|I think the layout of the txt document should stay very close to the >|original. As far as all having the same name file name. NO WAY! We as a >|group worked hard to get the word out. We are everywhere in the search >|engines. This would litereally kill the availability that we have gotten to >|at this point. Also, all of those websites would now have to be updated. If >|they are not it would leave a bad taste for those who are interested in >|getting invovled in ascii-art. THAT SHOULD BE OUR BIGGEST CONCERN! WE NEED >|MORE PEOPLE TO FEEL WELCOME AND WANT TO PARTICIPATE TO KEEP OUR ART ALIVE! >|Sorry about shouting but we do have people who treat newcombers poorly. And >|we all know what that does to the newcombers. C-ya! >'--------------------------- >Yes, but in the long run having identical filenames will make the site more >usable and the fact that all mirror sites have a link to one another has got >to get it back into the search engines pretty quickly -- there are lots of >free services on the web for getting good web site exposure. >It would be proper to put up a 'this page has been moved into the ADA (see >Matthew's latest FAQ posting) etc etc... You said, "site more usable", whose site? My site is very usable and the name of the file or html documanet has nothing to do with ease or speed of it's use. Although imbedding a file in folders does slow a document down in an extememly minor way, but never noticable. A link is a link. Not many people actually read the link itself, just about where it will take them and what it is for. (I read them, but I don't know anyone at work or in my family who does. And that's about 60 computer users.) Why damage the already good search engine use that there is out there now. The name really is irrelavent. Unlike a business, Location-Location-Location, we need, Participation-Particpation-Participation. >Matthew has said that maintaining HTML and text versions is no problem for >him, so this is no longer an issue... there will be two versions available: >plain text and HTMLified. Obv it will be the Plain Text posted to the >newsgroup. Sounds great! >|One document to do it all! Please! It is the right thing to do...think of >|the folks who can't go to websites and read "the extras". There are more >|systems out there like that than you think. Remember the more people the >|better! Even the getting started in Ascii-art is a fantastic feature that >|should be in the FAQ's. If it makes us smarter about the subject, it should >|be added. >'------------------------------- >Eek.. Up till now everyone was in favour of moving all of the details out of >the FAQ and into separate web documents, and putting simple answers in the >main FAQ with links to more detailed information. Please read the first one again and think about it, short answer and then more detailed info. The html versions could allow you to go to the next question from the point where the simple answer is over and the more detailed answer starts or it could go back to the index. This is the beuty of the html versions and how it make the FAQ's easy to read and still be in one document. All the other newsgroups that I have see, give you all the info at once. Those who care read it. PLUS ANOTHER BIG CONCERN, WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE KEEPER VANISHES FROM THE WEB (at no fault of their own obviously) AND ALL THOSE DETAILED LINKS GO WITH HIM? We now have to rewrite all the links to the next person who has them and all the search engines now have dead links and need to be updated again and we have to hope that the documents have been kept 100% updated from the keeper's version,... Can you see what I am getting at here? ONE DOCUMENT SOLVES THIS ALSO! ***I don't expect everyone to agree with me, (if any of you do for that matter on this issue of one document says it all), but at least consider the problems involved with not having it that way.*** Peace, Donovan /\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/ /_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry, /_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam. /_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836 _-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_- .,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST (O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html ( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95! -"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
.----- On Wed, 31 Mar 1999 18:34:36 +0200, Veronica Karlsson posted:
|llizard wrote:
|> Veronica Karlsson wrote:
|> > Martin Atkins wrote:
|> > > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/aaafaq/.
|> > >
|> > > Incidentally, that site is my proposal for the 'consistant style' of site
|> > > that I said I thought was important in the other post.
|> > >
|> >
|> > Linkblue text on a glaring white background?! No thanks!
|>
|> For instance, I did not see this Linkblue text on a glaring white
|> background that Veronica mentioned. I saw the default grey background,
|> default black text, default linkblue ...
|>
|
|http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/linkblue.gif
'---------------------------------
OK, I've listened and since I seem to have been nominated as the maintainer
of the 'ASCIIArt Documents Archive' I've done the following...
* Styled the site using an external CSS file. This means that I can have my
'Linkblue text on a glaring white background' while any other mirror host
can change the CSS file as they please.
* Put a list of mirror sites in.
* Subdivided the documents as 'current' and 'old' documents.
Is it too much to ask not to have a 'Veronica' logo at the top of the page,
if I put in a place for a link to anything you please... something like
'This mirror hosted by <A HREF="insertURLhere">Insert Name Here</a>' in the
'home page'?
If that is still not enough, I will probably remake it to allow whatever the
host wants to the top and bottom of the pages, but the FAQs are currently
mostlt in plain text format, so adding colours and headings to those is not
an option.
.---------------------------
|> But I saw the list of FAQ links. And I could read them easily. And
|> that's what matters.
|>
|
|I saw the linkblue text and found that difficult to read. I know I can
|turn it off, and it looks ok that way, but I wouldn't put something like
|that on my website (and what do people see who have instructed their
|browsers to not underline links?).
'------------------------
The blue used for the links is actually brighter than the other text, but I
can see how that could be annoying and not actually very obvious. I'm going
to have a little rethink on the 'default style' for the ADA, as currently it
is the same as the one on my /aaafaq/ sites.
Incidentally, the CSS specifies that links should be underlined... so if the
browser has CSS enabled the links should be underlined anyway.
.---------------------
|>Martin, could you please put a space after each description and make the
|>lines shorter? (breaking the lines after "and" and "can")
'----------------------
Hmm... I'll just fiddle with the HTML a bit...
The only ways I can see of doing that are to...
1. Drop the Definition List and format it using headings and paragraphs.
This is ugly IMO.
2. Put a <p> at the end of each description. That's very bad HTML.
3. Use a separate <DL></DL> for each, making the source code terribly ugly
and defeating the object.
Any other suggestions?
.----------------------------
|"Make the lines shorter"??? llizard, if you want shorter lines you
|should not use such a wide window.
'--------------------------
The lines *should* just wrap around whatever width you have set... have I
done that wrong?
.----------------------------
|
|font-size: 10pt;
|
|Hmmm... From what I've heard, that is a Bad Idea.
'--------------------------
Well, I'm going to rethink the stylesheet anyway, so I'll probably change
that. Are you saying using font-size is bad, or it being 10pt is bad?
.-------------------------
|Also, there are different types of documents in the list, some are FAQs,
|some are tutorials, some are something else. Maybe split it up into more
|than one list and add some headers to help people find what they're
|looking for?
'-----------------------
That isn't a bad idea. I'll have a look and see what I can do in that
department.
.--------------------------
|>
|> _____
|> | \ | /
|> |%^,/ | \,^%---
|> |__>_/|\_< \ Hey!!! *I'm* green in the mirror....
|> >
|> >
|> /|^^
|> ejm / \
|>
'--------------------------
lol.... you're never red though are you? :o)
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
.----- On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:40:44 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
|
| ,. .-,--. ,. ,-,-,-.
| / | ' | \ / | `,| | | . ,-. ,-. ,-. ,-.
| /~~|-. , | / /~~|-. | ; | . | | | | | |
| ,' `-' `-^--' ,' `-' ' `-' ' ' ' `-' '
| .---. .
| \___ . |- ,-. ,-.
| \ | | |-' `-.
| `---' ' `' `-' `-'
|
|It's sign up time!
|
|If you would like to host a mirror of the 'ASCII Documents Archive' at your
|site, please let me know at my email address...
|mart. --. .-- bigfoot. --.
| '-- atkins@ --' '-- com -->
|(spam protection)
|
'------------------------------
A few matters have arisen since I wrote this, so some clarification is now
required I feel.
The 'default' site is designed to be HTML 4.0 compliant, using CSS to define
it's look. The preffered way to change the look of the site to fit in with
yours is to alter the CSS file, but obviously some people would like to add
a title for their site and some site navigation links to the document, so I
have made allowances for this. If you do sign up, you are free to alter the
look of the pages in any way you see fit for your site, but it is preferred
that you don't change the content of the pages/documents on the site.
The majority of the documents are in plain text (.txt) format, meaning that
adding styles and links is not possible. Again it is preffered that you
don't change the filenames of the files and so don't change the .txts to
htmls. You can do so if you wish, but it will make linking awkward.
So hopefully now I have made everyone mostly happy. I hope that this
compromise will be to everyone's taste, and that everyone that was put off
by the 'to CSS or not to CSS' and the 'adding site specific stuff'
arguements.
Please let me know by email as in the last message if you would like to host
a mirror site.
-Martin
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
<SNIP> >Is it too much to ask not to have a 'Veronica' logo at the top of the page, >if I put in a place for a link to anything you please... something like >'This mirror hosted by <A HREF="insertURLhere">Insert Name Here</a>' in the >'home page'? <snip> Let's face it, this isn't for glorifying anyone. This is to get the info out. We have no room for egos here. Just make the reference to the person and page and that's it. Either always at the top or always at the bottom of each section that person wrote or contributed to. Also, Martin you might add a Thank You at the end of the entire document and post credits there. But they should still be by section they wrote. Peace, Donovan /\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/ /_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry, /_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam. /_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836 _-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_- .,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST (O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html ( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95! -"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
I totally agree! CJRandall wrote in message ... >Martin Atkins <zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz> writes >> >>The 'default' site is designed to be HTML 4.0 compliant, using CSS to define >>it's look. The preffered way to change the look of the site to fit in with > >[][ belated birthday greetz Martin ... > >please let me make a comment about this statement above > >it does _not_ matter a hoot what style each person paints their web.page >'cos on it u'll only have an <A HREF> link to the FAQ document which >should be rendered in black and white plain text just like i was viewing >it here .. tho' possibly with minimal markup to produce fixed-width font >in all browsers ... such as :- ><html><pre> > >IMO anything else is just OTT ... no offence meant to anyone whatsoever > >if i've totally misunderstood the debate plz say so ... i've only half >followed this debate since it lacks pictures > > .=-, ,-=. .=-, ,-=. > /\__\\__/\_ __,__//__,_ /\__\\__/\_ __,__//__,_ > '7~7~7|F~F~F 7~7~7|F~F~F` '7~7~7|F~F~F 7~7~7|F~F~F` > 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F > \| 7 |/ F \| 7 |/ F > \ / \ / > `'- -'` `'- -'` > >[][ see yuz >[][ colin >-- >. /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ >:( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk >' \___") <tHISsIGiStHEoNLYpROMOmYwEBsITEgETSaNYWAY:> Peace, Donovan /\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/ /_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry, /_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam. /_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836 _-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_- .,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST (O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html ( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95! -"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
Martin Atkins <zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz> writes > >The 'default' site is designed to be HTML 4.0 compliant, using CSS to define >it's look. The preffered way to change the look of the site to fit in with [][ belated birthday greetz Martin ... please let me make a comment about this statement above it does _not_ matter a hoot what style each person paints their web.page 'cos on it u'll only have an <A HREF> link to the FAQ document which should be rendered in black and white plain text just like i was viewing it here .. tho' possibly with minimal markup to produce fixed-width font in all browsers ... such as :- <html><pre> IMO anything else is just OTT ... no offence meant to anyone whatsoever if i've totally misunderstood the debate plz say so ... i've only half followed this debate since it lacks pictures .=-, ,-=. .=-, ,-=. /\__\\__/\_ __,__//__,_ /\__\\__/\_ __,__//__,_ '7~7~7|F~F~F 7~7~7|F~F~F` '7~7~7|F~F~F 7~7~7|F~F~F` 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F 7^7^7||F^F^F \| 7 |/ F \| 7 |/ F \ / \ / `'- -'` `'- -'` [][ see yuz [][ colin -- . /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ :( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk ' \___") <tHISsIGiStHEoNLYpROMOmYwEBsITEgETSaNYWAY:>
Donovan wrote: > <SNIP> > >Is it too much to ask not to have a 'Veronica' logo at the top of the page, > <snip> > Yes! No logo = no "mirror". (but, as I said before, I'll continue to keep a copy of some FAQ-type files on my site, only not part of this FAQ system) > Let's face it, this isn't for glorifying anyone. This is to get the info out. > We have no room for egos here. Just make the reference to the person and page > and that's it. Having a logo is NOT about "glorifying me" or "ego"!!!!! It's about HELPING people understand WHERE on the web they are!!! The www is a Big and Confusing place! One of my first experiences as a web page owner was that people asked me some VERY weird questions about stuff they had found on my homepage. It turned out they had not found it on my homepage at all. They had visited my homepage, then found a link out from it to some other site, belonging to some other person, and from there to a third site, which I had never seen and it was some page on that third site that they thought was mine. After I started to use a more consistent look on my pages, including a logo, that problem almost went away (there will always be _some_ people who get confused no matter what you do to guide them). -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
CJRandall wrote: > it does _not_ matter a hoot what style each person paints their web.page I agree. > 'cos on it u'll only have an <A HREF> link to the FAQ document which > should be rendered in black and white plain text just like i was viewing > it here .. tho' possibly with minimal markup to produce fixed-width font > in all browsers ... such as :- > <html><pre> Bad Idea! WHY put normal text in <PRE>? That tag is for _preformatted text_, e.g. ascii art or text which is already formatted as plain-text tables. Normal text in html is best presented with <P> for paragraphs, <Hx> for headers, etc. This makes it easy to distinguish what is a header (because it is rendered with a big font / a different font / centered / indented / whatever your browser and/or stylesheet uses to distinguish headers). It also makes the text in the paragraphs wrap when it reaches the right edge of the browser window (which is one of the Good Things about well-written html). -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
>CJRandall wrote: >> it does _not_ matter a hoot what style each person paints their web.page > >I agree. > >> 'cos on it u'll only have an <A HREF> link to the FAQ document which >> should be rendered in black and white plain text just like i was viewing >> it here .. tho' possibly with minimal markup to produce fixed-width font >> in all browsers ... such as :- >> <html><pre> > >Bad Idea! WHY put normal text in <PRE>? That tag is for _preformatted >text_, e.g. ascii art or text which is already formatted as plain-text >tables. Normal text in html is best presented with <P> for paragraphs, ><Hx> for headers, etc. This makes it easy to distinguish what is a >header (because it is rendered with a big font / a different font / >centered / indented / whatever your browser and/or stylesheet uses to >distinguish headers). It also makes the text in the paragraphs wrap when >it reaches the right edge of the browser window (which is one of the >Good Things about well-written html). I disagree with you on this one Veronica. If you want the mirror site to look just like the original document, the the auto wrap of not using <pre> will definitely make the document look quite different. So in this instance, I can honestly say I would use <pre> so that everytime they came back to the page (no matter what size their browser is) it would always look EXACTLY the same (in view form anyway). But everyone is hosting their own mirror, so they should do what they want. I use <pre> on all my FAQ's. I didn't used too, until I noticed that it did look different everytime I came back to it. I do happen to resize my windows often. Peace, Donovan /\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/ /_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry, /_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam. /_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836 _-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_- .,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST (O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html ( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95! -"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
\
> I'm sure we all know what's in this by now, so SNIP
/
'--------------------
OK, this is a summary of what's going on ATM...
Matthew has nominated myself to produce what he dubbed the 'ASCIIArt
Documents Archive', which I am currently working on. This has raised a few
more arguements.
VK is against all of the FAQ mirrors being identical, as are a few others
who want to use their own colours and in some cases logos/navbars on the
site.
Since these people feel so strongy about this, and refuse to be on the
mirror list if they can't add their stuff to the pages, I have made
allowances in my HTML for the addition of navbars, logos, colours etc. I
hope that this will bring back the people turned away by the fact that all
mirrors had to be identical.
Donovan is argueing that the FAQ documents have got good placement in search
engines. I tried an altavista search for 'alt.ascii-art faq' and found three
instances of the main faq on the first results page, so I can understand
where he is coming from.
I have therefore been humming over this for a while, and have come up with
this...
People who want to host mirrors of the ADA can do so, and this will require
hosting of all of the documents (which ones will be included are still up
for discussion). These sites will be listed on the Mirrors page.
People like Donovan who want to just keep a copy of the main FAQ itself, not
the other documents, and would like to keep the URL/filename they already
have, will go on a different list. I'm not quite sure how to handle this
yet, but it will probably we quite a complex feat since everyone has
different selections of documents on different filenames... I don't know if
I'm willing to go hunting for FAQ documents on peoples websites so I will
have to go on volunteered info, unless someone else is willing to go on a
FAQ hunt.
As for the main FAQ, Donovan wants it to include everything from all of the
documents and possibly end up being one huge monster of a document... while
Matthew Thomas (are you still here?) has begun doing exactly the opposite
and shifting the majority of the content into separate files. This is not a
matter for me (thank goodness) as it is Matthew's FAQ, but I include it here
because it is relevant.
When thinking of size we not only must think of usability, but also of the
fact that all of us regulars will have to download the FAQ every week (or
whenever it is posted, anyway) and if it is monster this download time will
get annoying.
If it is all in one file, Donovan argues, it will be easier for someone to
print out for later perusal. I have no comment on this matter, as I am
really unsure of what needs to be done. This is one for Matthew, I think.
With regards to the ADA, there is no longer a requirement that you keep the
style of the site and you can add whatever code you like to the top and
bottom of the pages. The ADA will come bare with a default .css file which
can either be ditched or changed to suit the style requirements of the
host(ess).
Ilmari is currently sorting out a request system where you can email a
request at an email address with a code in the subject line and have a FAQ
document sent to you in reply. I will have to talk to Ilmari about this, and
work out exactly what it will do and how the emailing of the Mirrors will be
done. I have a system in place where I can automatically email a message to
everyone in my hosts database (the same database that generates the mirrors
list), which currently includes Ilmari (do you still want to be in it?) and
so can you put the FAQ files included in the mirror mailout in place for
your replier thingy when I send them, or would it be better for you to do
all the mailing and me to just "write the damn thing!"
There has been no disagreement to the posting of the main FAQ only, once a
week -- therefore that is how it shall be.
Let's see if we can find a compromise to all of these arguements in the next
few days, or maybe weeks!
Kind regards,
-Martin.
______ ----.
.' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
-"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
.-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
.-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
/ '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
/ \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
| .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
_ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
/ '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
\_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
'__________/ mga '____\\
Martin Atkins <zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz> writes > >OK Everybody.. it's FAQ discussion time again. > [][ hi ... i had a look at http://martweb/hypemart.net/aaafaq i have two bleats ... 1. i couldn't see any light thru' it ... this means that all the text info was bunched up making it difficult to read due to a lack of line spacing one of the rules of readability is to 'let light through' 2. the linkages ... altho' underlined ... were not obvious since they were the same colour as the text i only looked at the link-page itself ... not the documents i think that the whole scheme is a good idea ... well done! oh ... and i was using Ie4 at the time keep on keeping on ... [][ see yuz [][ colin -- . /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ :( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk ' \___") <tHISsIGiStHEoNLYpROMOmYwEBsITEgETSaNYWAY:>
I will be gone for a week so whatever you all decide will be fine with me,
I'm not sure the post would take all that long to download only once a
week, but this is up to you Mathew.
Mathew, just keep in mind that my proposal was to answer each question
quickly and easily and then just have a heading like, 'For more detailed
info read the rest of this section.' If this has answered how you keep it
simple and how you get all the info in one document, then I have made my
feeling know and am done on that topic.
See you all in a week!
--
Peace,
Donovan
/\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/
/_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry,
/_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam.
/_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836
_-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_-
.,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST
(O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html
( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95!
-"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
Martin Atkins wrote in message <370...@news.vossnet.net>...
>.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted:
>\
> > I'm sure we all know what's in this by now, so SNIP
>/
>'--------------------
>
>OK, this is a summary of what's going on ATM...
>
>Matthew has nominated myself to produce what he dubbed the 'ASCIIArt
>Documents Archive', which I am currently working on. This has raised a few
>more arguements.
>
>VK is against all of the FAQ mirrors being identical, as are a few others
>who want to use their own colours and in some cases logos/navbars on the
>site.
>Since these people feel so strongy about this, and refuse to be on the
>mirror list if they can't add their stuff to the pages, I have made
>allowances in my HTML for the addition of navbars, logos, colours etc. I
>hope that this will bring back the people turned away by the fact that all
>mirrors had to be identical.
>
>Donovan is argueing that the FAQ documents have got good placement in
search
>engines. I tried an altavista search for 'alt.ascii-art faq' and found
three
>instances of the main faq on the first results page, so I can understand
>where he is coming from.
>I have therefore been humming over this for a while, and have come up with
>this...
>People who want to host mirrors of the ADA can do so, and this will require
>hosting of all of the documents (which ones will be included are still up
>for discussion). These sites will be listed on the Mirrors page.
>People like Donovan who want to just keep a copy of the main FAQ itself,
not
>the other documents, and would like to keep the URL/filename they already
>have, will go on a different list. I'm not quite sure how to handle this
>yet, but it will probably we quite a complex feat since everyone has
>different selections of documents on different filenames... I don't know if
>I'm willing to go hunting for FAQ documents on peoples websites so I will
>have to go on volunteered info, unless someone else is willing to go on a
>FAQ hunt.
>
>As for the main FAQ, Donovan wants it to include everything from all of the
>documents and possibly end up being one huge monster of a document... while
>Matthew Thomas (are you still here?) has begun doing exactly the opposite
>and shifting the majority of the content into separate files. This is not a
>matter for me (thank goodness) as it is Matthew's FAQ, but I include it
here
>because it is relevant.
>When thinking of size we not only must think of usability, but also of the
>fact that all of us regulars will have to download the FAQ every week (or
>whenever it is posted, anyway) and if it is monster this download time will
>get annoying.
>If it is all in one file, Donovan argues, it will be easier for someone to
>print out for later perusal. I have no comment on this matter, as I am
>really unsure of what needs to be done. This is one for Matthew, I think.
>
>With regards to the ADA, there is no longer a requirement that you keep the
>style of the site and you can add whatever code you like to the top and
>bottom of the pages. The ADA will come bare with a default .css file which
>can either be ditched or changed to suit the style requirements of the
>host(ess).
>
>Ilmari is currently sorting out a request system where you can email a
>request at an email address with a code in the subject line and have a FAQ
>document sent to you in reply. I will have to talk to Ilmari about this,
and
>work out exactly what it will do and how the emailing of the Mirrors will
be
>done. I have a system in place where I can automatically email a message to
>everyone in my hosts database (the same database that generates the mirrors
>list), which currently includes Ilmari (do you still want to be in it?) and
>so can you put the FAQ files included in the mirror mailout in place for
>your replier thingy when I send them, or would it be better for you to do
>all the mailing and me to just "write the damn thing!"
>
>There has been no disagreement to the posting of the main FAQ only, once a
>week -- therefore that is how it shall be.
>
>Let's see if we can find a compromise to all of these arguements in the
next
>few days, or maybe weeks!
>
>Kind regards,
>-Martin.
> ______ ----.
> .' '-' (D'. .---------------------------------.
> -"""""--.-' '-. | _______ |===========|
> .-' -' .'/ / ||\/| /\ |_)| | |\ | |mart.atkins|
> .-' '..-'.''. = || |/--\| \| _|_| \| | @ |
> / '-' '.___.' | ___ ___ __ |bigfoot.com|
> / \ | /\ ||/ | |\ |(_ |===========|
> | .. . | | /--\||\_|_| \|__) |Reply ROT13|
> _ | / '. | | |---------------------------------|
> / '| ' \ | / |#####.""""""""""""""""""""".#####|
> ( \ | '. ' |#####| HAPPY EASTER TO ALL |#####|
> \_/ '.. | .'. ' |#####'_____________________'#####|
> ' '' '''"\----' \ \__ '---------------------------------'
> '__________/ mga '____\\
In article <370...@earthling.net>, Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> writes >CJRandall wrote: >> it does _not_ matter a hoot what style each person paints their web.page > >I agree. > >> 'cos on it u'll only have an <A HREF> link to the FAQ document which >> should be rendered in black and white plain text just like i was viewing >> it here .. tho' possibly with minimal markup to produce fixed-width font >> in all browsers ... such as :- >> <html><pre> > >Bad Idea! WHY put normal text in <PRE>? That tag is for _preformatted >text_, e.g. ascii art or text which is already formatted as plain-text >tables. Normal text in html is best presented with <P> for paragraphs, ><Hx> for headers, etc. This makes it easy to distinguish what is a >header (because it is rendered with a big font / a different font / >centered / indented / whatever your browser and/or stylesheet uses to >distinguish headers). It also makes the text in the paragraphs wrap when >it reaches the right edge of the browser window (which is one of the >Good Things about well-written html). > [][ hi ... ok ... i guess i must be missing the point here ... i thought that the FAQ document _was_ pre-formatted text ? the markup i suggested is to help Ie3 display *.txt files correctly .. i don't have Ns2 so i can't see what that does Ns3,Ns4 and Ie4 (approx. 80% web users) don't have any problems with it ... also Lynx 2.8 works ok without markup however ... i shall be interested to see your version of the FAQ to teach me some good lessons in proper html coding (FAQ:3.0.0.vk) ... thanks for the info [][ see yuz [][ colin -- . /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ :( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk ' \___") <tHISsIGiStHEoNLYpROMOmYwEBsITEgETSaNYWAY:>
.----- On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 22:26:21 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: |.----- On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:40:44 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: || || ,. .-,--. ,. ,-,-,-. || / | ' | \ / | `,| | | . ,-. ,-. ,-. ,-. || /~~|-. , | / /~~|-. | ; | . | | | | | | || ,' `-' `-^--' ,' `-' ' `-' ' ' ' `-' ' || .---. . || \___ . |- ,-. ,-. || \ | | |-' `-. || `---' ' `' `-' `-' || ||It's sign up time! || ||If you would like to host a mirror of the 'ASCII Documents Archive' at your ||site, please let me know at my email address... ||mart. --. .-- bigfoot. --. || '-- atkins@ --' '-- com --> ||(spam protection) || |'------------------------------ | '-------------------------- Further to my previous post, would anyone be interested in a program that reads in files (top.htm, bottom.htm, setup.ini for example) and inserts them into the documents that need it on the FAQ site? This would make it easier to add logos/colours to the document when there is an update. I would only be able to make this for Win32 or DOS systems, so VK if you wanted this I'm afraid you'd have to do it yourself (maybe you already have a way of doing this for your other documents). Ilmari: You are using a non-DOS/Windows operating system too aren't you? What sort of arrangements were you hoping for? Just trying to please everyone as much as possible! -Martin |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
Martin Atkins wrote: > Further to my previous post, would anyone be interested in a program that > reads in files (top.htm, bottom.htm, setup.ini for example) and inserts them > into the documents that need it on the FAQ site? <snip> Isn't everybody already using a program like that? (or SSI) If you're not doing that already you should! I've used one called htp: http://www.crl.com/~jnelson/htp/ -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
CJRandall wrote: > > [][ hi ... ok ... i guess i must be missing the point here ... > > i thought that the FAQ document _was_ pre-formatted text ? > No, the FAQ document is information in the form of text, with a couple of small ascii illustrations. The text should be presented as "normal text", i.e. mostly in <p> tags. The ascii illustrations should be presented as preformatted text, in <pre> tags. To put the entire thing in one huge <pre> block is a bad idea since it doesn't make "optimal", or even "good", use of the html format. > the markup i suggested is to help Ie3 display *.txt files correctly .. > i don't have Ns2 so i can't see what that does > IE3 is broken if it tries to "interpret" html tags that happen to appear in txt files. > Ns3,Ns4 and Ie4 (approx. 80% web users) don't have any problems with it > ... also Lynx 2.8 works ok without markup > You are talking about plain-text files. I am talking about html documents. These are two different things. > however ... i shall be interested to see your version of the FAQ to > teach me some good lessons in proper html coding (FAQ:3.0.0.vk) > Try http://www.w3.org/ -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
.----- On Tue, 06 Apr 1999 02:20:53 +0200, Veronica Karlsson posted: |Martin Atkins wrote: |> Further to my previous post, would anyone be interested in a program that |> reads in files (top.htm, bottom.htm, setup.ini for example) and inserts them |> into the documents that need it on the FAQ site? <snip> | |Isn't everybody already using a program like that? (or SSI) If you're |not doing that already you should! I've used one called htp: | |http://www.crl.com/~jnelson/htp/ | '-------------------------------- I use SSI wherever possible (which is almost all of my sites) or even ASP which includes the SSI #include directive and can make inteligent decisions about what to present based on the containing document and the like. As for anyone else, I'm going to make one catered specifically for the FAQ documents, but if anyone wants to use anything better they can feel free! :o) Just trying to attract some more mirror-hosts/hotesses... :o) -Martin |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
Veronica Karlsson writes >CJRandall wrote: >> >> [][ hi ... ok ... i guess i must be missing the point here ... >> >> i thought that the FAQ document _was_ pre-formatted text ? >> > >No, the FAQ document is information in the form of text, with a couple [snip] > ,. To put the entire thing >in one huge <pre> block is a bad idea since it doesn't make "optimal", >or even "good", use of the html format. alas ... i disagree >IE3 is broken if it tries to "interpret" html tags that happen to appear >in txt files. this is true > >> Ns3,Ns4 and Ie4 (approx. 80% web users) don't have any problems with it >> ... also Lynx 2.8 works ok without markup >> >You are talking about plain-text files. I am talking about html >documents. These are two different things. it is clear to me that we are talking at cross purposes > >> however ... i shall be interested to see your version of the FAQ to >> teach me some good lessons in proper html coding (FAQ:3.0.0.vk) >> > >Try http://www.w3.org/ > yep ... a mine of information > this is the last post i shall make to this thread ... having said my piece and not wishing to make an argument fact of life:- >> ARGUMENTS: >> A woman has the last word in any argument. Anything a man says >> after that is the beginning of a new argument. >> [][ see yuz [][ colin -- . /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ :( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk ' \___") <tHISsIGiStHEoNLYpROMOmYwEBsITEgETSaNYWAY:>
.----- On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:40:44 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: |.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: ||5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site? |'----------------------------- | | ,. .-,--. ,. ,-,-,-. | / | ' | \ / | `,| | | . ,-. ,-. ,-. ,-. | /~~|-. , | / /~~|-. | ; | . | | | | | | | ,' `-' `-^--' ,' `-' ' `-' ' ' ' `-' ' | .---. . | \___ . |- ,-. ,-. | \ | | |-' `-. | `---' ' `' `-' `-' | |It's sign up time! | '-------------------------------- I now have a copy of the ADA as it stands on my three mirrors: http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ada/ (Langley, UK) http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/ada/ (Somewhere UK) http://martweb.hypermart.net/ada/ (Seattle, USA but has popups!) I tried running the W3C Validator over it but I couldn't make head nor tail of it's response... it said that every single tag I used doesn't exist... we're talking <HTML>, <HEAD>, <LINK>, <BODY>, <P>, everything. AFAICT the site is as HTML-valid as is possible, if not perfect then 99% valid! The mirror lists are a little iffy at present, as indicated on the homepage --- there are some I haven't added, and others I possibly need to remove. I also think that I spelt the name of Veronica's university wrong... let me know VK, since I did it from memory! :o) I hope that people will be willing to host mirrors of this site, with the new unrestrictive recommendations! Please let me know... -Martin |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
Matthew Thomas wrote: > <snip> > This !DOCTYPE is the one I usually use, HTML 4.0: > -- > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> > -- > The !DOCTYPE tag should go *before* the HTML tag. > He has one, but apparently it isn't correct somehow. I use these (copied straight from the W3C site): <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/loose.dtd"> or: <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/REC-html40/strict.dtd"> (I suggest the "Transitional" one for the FAQ, and for web pages in general. It's more in tune with the "Real World", where everything isn't always as perfect as one might wish...) -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
.----- On Sun, 11 Apr 1999 18:51:02 +1200, Matthew Thomas posted: | |> I tried running the W3C Validator over it but I couldn't make head nor |> tail of it's response... it said that every single tag I used doesn't |> exist... we're talking <HTML>, <HEAD>, <LINK>, <BODY>, <P>, |> everything. AFAICT the site is as HTML-valid as is possible, if not |> perfect then 99% valid! | |The W3C validator will, AFAIK, reject everything (apart from comments) |*unless* you have a !DOCTYPE tag at the start to tell it what kind of |document it's supposed to be validating. | |This !DOCTYPE is the one I usually use, HTML 4.0: |-- |<!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> |-- |The !DOCTYPE tag should go *before* the HTML tag. | '--------------------------- All of the ADA documents use... <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Strict//EN"> Is that wrong then? |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
Martin Atkins wrote: >... > ||5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site? >... > |It's sign up time! Oh good. I've just got back from my holiday, ready to attack the FAQ again ... > I now have a copy of the ADA as it stands on my three mirrors: > http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ada/ (Langley, UK) > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/ada/ (Somewhere UK) > http://martweb.hypermart.net/ada/ (Seattle, USA but has popups!) Noted and to be included in the next draft ... > I tried running the W3C Validator over it but I couldn't make head nor > tail of it's response... it said that every single tag I used doesn't > exist... we're talking <HTML>, <HEAD>, <LINK>, <BODY>, <P>, > everything. AFAICT the site is as HTML-valid as is possible, if not > perfect then 99% valid! The W3C validator will, AFAIK, reject everything (apart from comments) *unless* you have a !DOCTYPE tag at the start to tell it what kind of document it's supposed to be validating. This !DOCTYPE is the one I usually use, HTML 4.0: -- <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Transitional//EN"> -- The !DOCTYPE tag should go *before* the HTML tag. Regards -- Matthew `<BODY></BODY>' Thomas, columnist, http://www.newsroom.co.nz/ `MS can stick around and make products I don't want to buy all day. I just want to make them stop squishing their competitors before they get out of the gate.' -- `Moofie' on http://slashdot.org/
Martin Atkins wrote: >... > All of the ADA documents use... > <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Strict//EN"> > > Is that wrong then? Yes, Martin, that is wrong. The DOCTYPE for HTML 4.0 Strict is "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN", not "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Strict//EN". See http://plug.co.nz/html/tagpages/d/doctype.htm for more about DOCTYPES, and see http://validator.w3.org/sgml-lib/catalog for the list of DOCTYPES which the W3C validator knows how to handle. Using the Strict DTD instead of the Transitional one will prevent people from adding old-style (FONT COLOR and so on) formatting to their mirrors without invalidating the pages -- it allows only stylesheet formatting. It would also probably invalidate pages which had had script and other stuff automatically added to them by GeoCities or whoever, because that extra stuff would probably use FONT SIZE and so on. Whether this is what you want, I don't know. bye -- Matthew `close, but no <CIGAR/>' Thomas Columnist, http://www.newsroom.co.nz/ Webmaster, http://www.ucsa.canterbury.ac.nz/clubs/kakariki/ FAQ maintainer, news:alt.ascii-art
In article <370...@news.vossnet.net>, zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz (Martin Atkins) wrote: > > .----- On Thu, 01 Apr 1999 12:40:44 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: > |.----- On Fri, 26 Mar 1999 13:41:36 GMT, Martin Atkins posted: > ||5. Who's going to have a copy of these documents on their site? > |'----------------------------- > | > | ,. .-,--. ,. ,-,-,-. > | / | ' | \ / | `,| | | . ,-. ,-. ,-. ,-. > | /~~|-. , | / /~~|-. | ; | . | | | | | | > | ,' `-' `-^--' ,' `-' ' `-' ' ' ' `-' ' > | .---. . > | \___ . |- ,-. ,-. > | \ | | |-' `-. > | `---' ' `' `-' `-' > | > |It's sign up time! > | > '-------------------------------- > > I now have a copy of the ADA as it stands on my three mirrors: > http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ada/ (Langley, UK) > http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/ada/ (Somewhere UK) > http://martweb.hypermart.net/ada/ (Seattle, USA but has popups!) [snip] > I hope that people will be willing to host mirrors of this site, with the > new unrestrictive recommendations! Please let me know... > > -Martin > |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- > | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com Martin, it looks good. It's clear, to the point and very readable. Well done. Martin, it's just a small point, but I wonder why you have "* Older Documents" first in your list when you state that "The most important, general, documents are near the top of the list while the other, more specific documents have been left to the end." Because my site is with the dreaded GeoCities that adds all the unnecessary banners (that often have the most horrendous coding - sometimes they forget to close tables....) and stupid logo in the right hand corner, I will not offer to host a mirror site. || `) || __ \ || {`))/' |_ .(((/ !`. <---- cursor /,(`)) || \ )(____.---- ) || <---- edge of page ')/ \ ` ( || / ' \ ` ) || / ' \ ` / || / ' _/ || ___ / _!____.-' || _/ |===%^, __! _ __ /_.-_|_} / _) || |_____| __/\/> (_m| - )/ _ ( ,|_ ||`_| | -_)(_-<|| --- == > \___|\___|\___/\_,_|_|\__|_|\___!___/|| [_____] __>,^ _____________________________________[] ejm | | //| | _ /| / bottom of page ... || `) || __ \ || {`))/' |_ .(((/ !`. <---- cursor /,(`)) || \ )(____.---- ) || <---- edge of page ')/ \ ` ( || / ' \ ` _) || / ' \ ,-_,.) || ___ / ' (( *)) || _/ | ____,^@@--- / _!____.`;-' || |_____| __/> \ EEEEeeeeek!!! /_.-' / <<___ || --- == > IT CHANGED!!!! ejm /| |`_ (( )) || [_____] __>,^ \/ `---'' || ejm | | //| | _____________________________[] _ /| / bottom of page NOTE: I do not pick up my mail from the idirect address. If you are e-mailing and hit the reply button, add an "e" to "freent"; its absense is to stop the torment of automatic mailers. -- ______%^|> I think I lost my sense of humor; maybe } {/ > it's in here.... } TRASH { > llizard aka ejm } BIN { /|^^ cq547@freene+.+oron+o.on.ca ejm }_______{ | \ www.geocities.com/SoHo/Studios/9334/
Martin Atkins wrote in message <370...@news.vossnet.net>... >I now have a copy of the ADA as it stands on my three mirrors: >http://voices.vossnet.co.uk/a/atkins/ada/ (Langley, UK) ** http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/ada/ (London, UK) ** Its in London I think. >http://martweb.hypermart.net/ada/ (Seattle, USA but has popups!)
.----- On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 15:47:03 +1200, Matthew Thomas posted:
|Martin Atkins wrote:
|>...
|> All of the ADA documents use...
|> <!DOCTYPE HTML PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Strict//EN">
|>
|> Is that wrong then?
|
|Yes, Martin, that is wrong. The DOCTYPE for HTML 4.0 Strict is
|"-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0//EN", not "-//W3C//DTD HTML 4.0 Strict//EN". See
|http://plug.co.nz/html/tagpages/d/doctype.htm for more about DOCTYPES,
|and see http://validator.w3.org/sgml-lib/catalog for the list of
|DOCTYPES which the W3C validator knows how to handle.
'---------------------------------
Hmm... I was working from an old document about HTML4 that I got from W3C
ages ago, so that'll be why it was wrong :o)
.---------------------------------
|Using the Strict DTD instead of the Transitional one will prevent people
|from adding old-style (FONT COLOR and so on) formatting to their mirrors
|without invalidating the pages -- it allows only stylesheet formatting.
|It would also probably invalidate pages which had had script and other
|stuff automatically added to them by GeoCities or whoever, because that
|extra stuff would probably use FONT SIZE and so on. Whether this is what
|you want, I don't know.
'----------------------------------
While I was using strict I had a comment with a message to that effect,
something like...
<!-- if you would like to use FONT tags and BODY tag attributes to
format the page, you should change the 'Strict' above to read
'transitional' -->
But after VK's suggestion I changed to Transitional, so the message is no
longer necessary.
-Martin
|\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@--
| |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
.----- On Mon, 12 Apr 1999 23:32:46 +0100, Andrew Carpenter posted: | |** http://website.lineone.net/~martin.atkins/ada/ (London, UK) ** |Its in London I think. | '------------------------- Thanks, I'll change it. -Martin |\/| _..__|_o._ /\_|_| o._ _ mart.atkins@-- | |(_|| |_|| | /--\|_|<|| |_> --bigfoot.com
NOTE: This message was originally addressed to ALL
and was forwarded to you by DAMON VAUGHAN
--------------------
Path: news3.nwnexus.com!nwnews.wa.com!news-out.cwix.com!newsfeed.cwix.com!209
.44.33.119!hub1.ispnews.com!news3.ispnews.com.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: "Donovan" <don...@misslink.net>
Newsgroups: alt.ascii-art
References: <36f...@news.vossnet.net> <36F...@on.spammer>
Veronica Karlsson wrote in message <36F...@on.spammer>...
>Martin Atkins wrote:
<snip>
>> I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really
>> be identical as far as possible,
>
>Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage
>layout for them?
<snip>
Apperance maybe, but not in functionality. I would stop hosting FAQ's if
that were true. Don't you realize how hard it is for folks to scroll down
to a section that they want to read? That is the point of having it fully
linked. Posting to a newsgroup should be straight text, but the mirror
sites should be much easier to use.
40 pages of Kool-Aid FAQ's and all you want to know is how to use Kool-Aid
to get rid of rust stains in the bath tub. Without linking it, it would take
that poor sole too much time to care. And it is difficult to just look for a
certain heading without taking all day. Especially if you are new!
Peace,
Donovan
/\ `_ , p e A c e c A m http://www.misslink.net/donovan/
/_|\ -(_)- This is your portal to Ascii-Art, Kool-Aid, poetry,
/_|__\ , ` The Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ!, ZDTV, & the webcam.
/_|__|_\ Mailto:don...@misslink.net ICQ#: 812836
_-/_|__|__|\_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_dwb_-
.,_, EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST
(O,O) http://www.misslink.net/donovan/bb1.html
( ) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices at $6.95!
-"-"--------------------------------------------------------------dwb-
donovan wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > >Martin Atkins wrote: > <snip> > >> I think that all of the sites hosting the FAQs should really > >> be identical as far as possible, > > > >Why? Wouldn't it be better that each person used his/her own homepage > >layout for them? > <snip> > > Apperance maybe, but not in functionality. I would stop hosting FAQ's if > that were true. Don't you realize how hard it is for folks to scroll down > to a section that they want to read? That is the point of having it fully > linked. Posting to a newsgroup should be straight text, but the mirror > sites should be much easier to use. For the n'th time! I did never say that the FAQ should not use "#-links" to places further down in the same document! I did say that each person should be able to choose wether they wanted to use a black, white, blue, green, purple, yellow, red or pink background. I did say that each person should be able to choose wether they wanted to use Monaco, Fixedsys, Courier or the user's preferred font for the ascii art examples, and wther they wanted to use Times, Helvetica, Arial or a monospaced font for the rest of the text. I did say that each person should be able to chose wether they wanted a 10px margin or a 3em margin or no margin at all. I did say that each person should be able to choose wether they wanted to use different colours on different types of text or the same colour for every type of text, and what that/those colour(s) should be. I did say that each person should be able to choose wether they wanted to use CSS formatting or HTML formatting for the documents. You need to figure out the meaning of the word "layout". It has nothing to do with wether there exist "#-links" in a page or not. Link functionality is not affected by colour choice. -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
About this thread.
These messages were posted publicly to the newsgroup
alt.ascii-art
in 1999 and are mirrored here unchanged as part of the Historic Archives – only email addresses are masked.
The artwork and text belong to their original authors: if you copy a piece, keep the artist's initials or signature intact and credit them where you can.
Are you one of the authors? Contact us to get your posts attributed, connected to your artist profile, or removed.
Report this message
Help us keep the archive clean and accurate. Reports are reviewed by a person – nothing is changed automatically.