Original Usenet thread from alt.ascii-art, started 7 Nov 1999.
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Warning -- ASCII art and Netscape Messenger 5.0
alt.ascii-art
· 43 messages · 7 Nov 1999 - 20 Nov 1999
On Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:02:55 +1300, Matthew Thomas <mpt...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> provoked the following text: >Well, discussions are taking place right this very minute to make the >mail/news part of Mozilla 5.0 (from which Netscape Messenger 5.0 will be >derived) do a similar thing. > >Specifically, when Messenger is *displaying* (not sending) messages, >programmers are proposing to: > >* assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an > e-mail address, and turn it into a link Good idea, it's just as how Fort� Agent handles it, i can't do without! >* assume that any non-white-space string starting with `www.' is a Web > address, and turn it into a link Yep, really handy, also a feature in FA. >* show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) Good for you, i wouldn't want it either! >* show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > ASCII art pictures). Eeek!!! -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ Shin - Device for finding furniture in the dark.
Howdy people, long time no see ... university is a tad busy these days. I don't have time to read a.a-a any more, let alone post to it. :-( However, I thought I'd just drop in and let you know about something which is a wee bit of a threat to our enjoyment of ASCII art. As you will know, Microsoft's Outlook and Outlook Express are not good to send ASCII art with, because they (a) delete spaces from the beginning of a line, and (b) turn the sequence of characters `//' into `file://'. Well, discussions are taking place right this very minute to make the mail/news part of Mozilla 5.0 (from which Netscape Messenger 5.0 will be derived) do a similar thing. Specifically, when Messenger is *displaying* (not sending) messages, programmers are proposing to: * assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an e-mail address, and turn it into a link * assume that any non-white-space string starting with `www.' is a Web address, and turn it into a link * show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some ASCII art pictures). On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font. So, how can you help? You can download a PRE-ALPHA (that means unstable and incomplete, so you've been warned) version of Mozilla at http://www.mozillazine.org/ in the `fetchBuilds' section. You can look at the relevant `bug' for text->HTML rendering of mail/news messages, at http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16507. You can read the discussion of how to detect ASCII art, which is going on in news:netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news. The relevant thread starts at http://x37.deja.com/=dnc/getdoc.xp?AN=538221886&search=thread&CONTEXT=941963240.612696119&hitnum=49 (sorry for the long address). So please read it all before contributing. And finally, if you have done all (or at least most) of the above, you can pester the person doing the programming, Ben Bucksch, mozilla @ bucksch . org. Tell him you're from news:alt.ascii-art. ttfn -- Matthew `mpt' Thomas http://critique.net.nz/
Matthew Thomas wrote: > <snip> > Specifically, when Messenger is *displaying* (not sending) messages, > programmers are proposing to: > > * assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an > e-mail address, and turn it into a link > > * assume that any non-white-space string starting with `www.' is a Web > address, and turn it into a link As long as "turning text into a link" only means colouring it blue and underlining it, fine, no problem. Sometimes the algorithm will guess wrong, and the result will look a bit silly, but the information has not been corrupted. When the algorithm gets it right the user will win because the program will be more useful than if the program just showed the string in question as plain text. If "turning text into a link" includes adding "file:" or some such rubbish, or in some other way corrupting the information in the message - NOT FINE! > * show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) As long as the *characters* are all there, not more and not less, no problem. > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > ASCII art pictures). THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a smiley! I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a preformatted table. I think it had something to do with book prices, i.e. work stuff! not ascii art, and not a smiley! By the time somebody showed me where the control was to turn that off I had already found an alternative solution - NOTEPAD! (the WinNT version)) > On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain > text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read > messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font. I just hope they do a better job than Deja... :-P <snip> > You can read the discussion of how to detect ASCII art, which is going > on in news:netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news. My server says "no such newsgroup"... :( Anyway, ascii art is mostly just for fun, but there are more serious implications. I have lost count of the number of threads that have gone ugly and completely lost touch with the original topic because somebody's news reader "interpreted" html tags in a plain-text message... Also, OE5's file:// thing can cause some major confusion when one is discussing Javascript: //--></script> Apparently OE5 displays this as: file://--></script> with lots of confusion and irritation as a result. Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code examples in the text... I say, colour the text like the rainbow if you like (just look at what Deja's doing, it sucks but at least it's readable. Now, if they could just get that monospaced font to line up properly...), turn it bold, underline it and/or italicise it, but DON'T *C*H*A*N*G*E* the characters! If there are three space characters in the post there should be three space characters displayed, nothing more, nothing less. Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like being able to do that. -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
> If "turning text into a link" includes adding "file:" or some such > rubbish, or in some other way corrupting the information in the message > - NOT FINE! I totally agree. > > * show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) > As long as the *characters* are all there, not more and not less, no > problem. Well i'd be slightly annoyed .. but i guess i could live with that. > > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > > ASCII art pictures). > > THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) > and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a smiley! > I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a preformatted > table. I think it had something to do with book prices, i.e. work stuff! > not ascii art, and not a smiley! By the time somebody showed me where > the control was to turn that off I had already found an alternative > solution - NOTEPAD! (the WinNT version)) I myself only use plaintext wordproccesors .. for 90% of all my work. Mostly Super Notetab , which i just recently found out has an convert to ascii option.. never again nonascii pictures .. i can just convert and spot the errors instantly > My server says "no such newsgroup"... :( I had more luck .. but you use deja can't you ? > Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code > examples in the text... Don't i know it .. i frequently exchange code over the net > Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a > setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting > to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like > being able to do that. I'd like to see an option to do ALLCAPS conversion to smallcaps .. SO YOU CAN AVOID THE IRRITATING ALLCAPS MESSAGES .. DON'T YOU JUST HATE THOOSE ! - CJ -- When I was young we did'nt ,---. _,-=-._ ,-- have websites like this. | | ,' _____ `. .---------------------------. | | '=(-o=o-)=' ( CeeJay Central ) \,(O)./ \(_)/ ( http://CeeJay.marmoset.net/ ) (-o-o-) )"( '---------------------------' \(_)/ """ When I was young we did'nt --' )"( even have electricity! """
Matthew Thomas writes >Howdy people, long time no see ... university is a tad busy these days. >beginning of a line, and (b) turn the sequence of characters `//' into >`file://'. >mail/news part of Mozilla 5.0 (from which Netscape Messenger 5.0 will be >derived) do a similar thing. >* assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an > e-mail address, and turn it into a link >* assume that any non-white-space string starting with `www.' is a Web > address, and turn it into a link >* show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) >* show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > ASCII art pictures). > //\ //\ _.//.@,._ _*//*@*._ .:` //. @ `:. .:`*//* *@* `:. :` //. @ `: :` *//* *@* `: :: //. @ :: : *//* *@* : :: //. @ :: : *//* *@* : www.ww//w.w...@ww.www...www.ww//w.w...@ww.www :: //. @ :: : *//* *@* : ;://._ _ _ _ @ :; ;*//* _ ___ *@* ; //.(_` / ` | | @/ *//* |_) | *@* //'.,_) \_, | | ..'@ *//*. |\_ | .*@* //_ '-._-.....-_.-' _@_.._*//* '-._ _.-' *@* """" `'''''` """""""""" `'''''` """ teehee [][ see yuz [][ colin -- . /\_/\ ( () |_ | |\| _/ |? .\ |\| |) .\ |_ |_ :( a a( CJRandall http://www.shieldwolf.demon.co.uk ' \___") <<sPAMiSanUISANCE--=oOo=--tROLLSaREwORSE>>
On Sun, 7 Nov 1999 19:51:51 +0100, "Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen" <REM...@CeeJay.findhere.com> provoked the following text: >> Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a >> setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting >> to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like >> being able to do that. > >I'd like to see an option to do ALLCAPS conversion to smallcaps .. SO YOU CAN AVOID THE >IRRITATING ALLCAPS MESSAGES .. DON'T YOU JUST HATE THOOSE ! How about an option to select a piece of text and turn 'em into or out of caps? -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ If a program is useful, it must be changed.
Veronica Karlsson wrote: >... > > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for > > some ASCII art pictures). > > THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) > and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a > smiley! I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a > preformatted table. I think it had something to do with book prices, > i.e. work stuff! not ascii art, and not a smiley! By the time somebody > showed me where the control was to turn that off I had already found > an alternative solution - NOTEPAD! (the WinNT version)) I've just proposed a compromise: that the :-) characters be left as they are, but colorized (eyes blue, mouth red, etc). > > On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when > > plain text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who > > read messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a > > fixed-width font. > > I just hope they do a better job than Deja... :-P Deja doesn't try at all ... But here's a tip for you: after following any URI to Deja, you can switch into fixed-width-font (ASCII-art- -friendly!) mode by inserting "=dnc/" immediately after the "deja.com/". So http://x47.deja.com/blahblahblah becomes http://x47.deja.com/=dnc/blahblahblah. The way to remember it is that `dnc' stands for `Deja News Classic'. >... > > You can read the discussion of how to detect ASCII art, which is > > going on in news:netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news. > > My server says "no such newsgroup"... :( Yes, it's not widely propagated, but Deja and Remarq both have it. Or you can subscribe to it as a mailing list -- instructions on http://www.mozilla.org/community.html. >... > I say, colour the text like the rainbow if you like (just look at what > Deja's doing, it sucks but at least it's readable. Now, if they could > just get that monospaced font to line up properly...), turn it bold, > underline it and/or italicise it, but DON'T *C*H*A*N*G*E* the > characters! If there are three space characters in the post there > should be three space characters displayed, nothing more, nothing > less. Hmmm. Apart from the smileys, they're just using style sheets, so there's not too much content-twiddling going on ... and more than one consecutive space is being considered as a tell-tale sign of ASCII art. > Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a > setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting > to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like > being able to do that. >... I wonder how many people would stop using "-- " if that was introduced, just so that their correspondents always get to see their sigs whether they like it or not ... :-/ ttfn -- Matthew `mpt' Thomas http://critique.net.nz/
Peter Punk <ppu...@damnthatspam.hetnet.nl> wrote in message news:eeI...@4ax.com... > On Sun, 07 Nov 1999 22:02:55 +1300, Matthew Thomas > <mpt...@student.canterbury.ac.nz> provoked the following text: > > >Well, discussions are taking place right this very minute to make the > >mail/news part of Mozilla 5.0 (from which Netscape Messenger 5.0 will be > >derived) do a similar thing. > > > >Specifically, when Messenger is *displaying* (not sending) messages, > >programmers are proposing to: > > > >* assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an > > e-mail address, and turn it into a link > > Good idea, it's just as how Fort� Agent handles it, i can't do without! Yes it's good when it turned into a link , but i could be done to so many other things than a mail link .. it should be "done rigth"(TM) > >* show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) > > Good for you, i wouldn't want it either! I hate it when programs imagine that they are smarter than me , always "fixing" things for me ... having me fix them back. > >* show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > > ASCII art pictures). > > Eeek!!! I agree .. It would be the worst thing for email since HTML-mail (did netscape do that one too ?) I FUT'ed this to news:netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news where it belongs. (\ '(_\ ` ' `o_ ` ` |\`) | \) ,-+-. .------------------------------------------------------------------------------. /e=mc2\ ,- ( Now lets get back to ascii-art and leave the programming to the propellerheads ) ,' _____ `. '------------------------------------------------------------------------------' '=( . .)=' \ (_) )o( """ Kind Regards CeeJay
Peter Punk <ppu...@damnthatspam.hetnet.nl> wrote in message news:X+Q...@4ax.com... > >I'd like to see an option to do ALLCAPS conversion to smallcaps .. SO YOU CAN AVOID THE > >IRRITATING ALLCAPS MESSAGES .. DON'T YOU JUST HATE THOOSE ! > > How about an option to select a piece of text and turn 'em into or out of > caps? You can do that already with many programs .. i'd like to see a more automated conversion .. like if the entire mail was ALLCAPS then do smallcaps (with sentence capitalizing) -CJ PS ... FUT - netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news
Matthew Thomas wrote: > * show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) It wasn't you, who convinced me. > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > ASCII art pictures). We will leave ":)" alone, we just change " :)", which should be more secure. > On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain > text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read > messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font. I will step into this. We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art, that doesn't sound like "60% of ...". Can somebody give me a good *and* simple (easy to remember and figure out with just using the software) rule? It should catch ASCII-tables, but shouldn't trigger, if not appropriate. Currently, we walk char-by-char through the message, an algorithm that honors that has better chances to be implemented. Of course, I can't even garanty, if such an detection will make it into Mozilla. > You can look at the relevant `bug' for text->HTML rendering of mail/news > messages, at http://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=16507. > > And finally, if you have done all (or at least most) of the above, you > can pester the person doing the programming, Ben Bucksch, > mozilla @ bucksch . org. Tell him you're from news:alt.ascii-art. I'm displeased with the way you are bringing this discussion into this newsgroup. bugzilla is our work tracking system and not for discussions. It has no threading. Posting my email address is even more impudent. -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
Veronica Karlsson wrote: > As long as "turning text into a link" only means colouring it blue and > underlining it, fine, no problem. > If "turning text into a link" includes adding "file:" or some such > rubbish, or in some other way corrupting the information in the message > - NOT FINE! It isn't only turned blue, of course, it's changed into a HTML-"a" tag. After that, the original, unaltered text is the description (displayed text of the link) and the reference is the guessed URL (including "http://" or similar). You can see, how this and the email address detection work, in Netscape Messenger 4.x (if I'm right, it's exactly the same code). It's nothing new. > > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > > ASCII art pictures). > > THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) > and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a smiley! > I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a preformatted > table. I think it had something to do with book prices, i.e. work stuff! We are aware of that. Your problem wouldn't appear with Mozilla, see my most recent reply to Matthew Thomas. Nevertheless, you will have the option of disabling the substitution. > Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code > examples in the text... We *are* programmers... :-) > underline it and/or italicise it, but DON'T *C*H*A*N*G*E* the > characters! If there are three space characters in the post there should > be three space characters displayed, nothing more, nothing less. Note that it is the right of the reader to read the message however he likes. > Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a > setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting > to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like > being able to do that. This suggestion was already made. There's a chance, that it will make it into the product. If somebody ignores the "-- " rule, flame him :-). -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
On Mon, 08 Nov 1999 07:46:35 +0100, Ben Bucksch (new...@bucksch.org) wrote:
: I will step into this. We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art,
: that doesn't sound like "60% of ...". Can somebody give me a good *and*
: simple (easy to remember and figure out with just using the software)
: rule? It should catch ASCII-tables, but shouldn't trigger, if not
: appropriate.
Marking a paragraph as preformatted text if it contains more than two
(or maybe three) consecutive spaces sounds like a good idea. You may
wish to handle indentation separately, though.
You really don't want to try detecting ASCII art specifically, but
rather preformatted text in general. This would include anything from
source code to justified text. In HTML, all these are better placed
in <PRE> than in ordinary <P> blocks.
What's important is that this should be the *default* rendering mode
for anything that appears preformatted - if you have specialized ways
to render, say, justified or indented text, then they should override
the default. Remember that preformatted text is the only format that
can *never* break *any* possible content.
Actually, I think giving the user a choice to view everything as
preformatted text (with automatic links and such still applied) would
be a very useful feature. I know I'd use it.
That said, I think another way to detect ASCII art would be to look
for some number (4?) of consecutive (possibly separated by spaces),
different (so you'd catch /{&%=]\# but not ?!?!?!?) punctuation
characters. That'd be particularly useful in detecting those pictures
that have few if any spaces in them.
--
Ilmari Karonen
http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/
> > : Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and > > : headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i > > : can't think of another. Sorry). > We have a pref to turn this off. We didn't decide yet, what will be the > default. Off - Definatly off > It wasn't my idea, but I think, it's funny to have graphical smilies. Yes , maybe for a few weeks - Then it start to get really old. But you could also just do colouring of the smiles. BTW ... you asked for a way to detect ascii-art.(and i presented an idea to detect if it was not ..any ways) Here's an idea : Any message sent to or from (that is a reply to) a newsgroup containing to word "ascii" is ascii-art ! That would catch alt.ascii-art - alt.ascii-art.animation - rec.arts.ascii and the foreign ascii groups too. The messenger should also be aware of this when sending to thoose groups. That method seems pretty failsafe - I can't find any flaws in it. And also how to detect if it is not ascii (other than the extended-ascii idea i posted earlier). Tab-indetion. If there is TAB's after the first letter of the line it is not ascii nor code. TABS before the first letter is also not ascii but it could be code. All of theese exception and then the "80% of type A letters and no more than 5% of type B letters"-method could make for an okay detection.. I'll post more idea when i get some (ideas that is *hehe*). Sincerly CeeJay -- When I was young we did'nt ,---. _,-=-._ ,-- have websites like this. | | ,' _____ `. .---------------------------. | | '=(-o=o-)=' ( ~ CeeJay Central ~ ) \,(O)./ \(_)/ ( http://CeeJay.marmoset.net/ ) (-o-o-) )"( '---------------------------' \(_)/ """ When I was young we did'nt --' )"( even have electricity! """
Peter Punk <ppu...@damnthatspam.hetnet.nl> wrote:
: On Mon, 08 Nov 1999 07:46:35 +0100, Ben Bucksch <new...@bucksch.org>
: provoked the following text:
:>> * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some
:>> ASCII art pictures).
:>We will leave ":)" alone, we just change " :)", which should be more
:>secure.
: Why change usenet and e-mail traditions? And how about ":-)))", ";-)",
: ":-*" or "|-/"? Not to mention "@--\--\--"
: Thinking up new emoticons is part of the fun of posting in any NG.
: Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and
: headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i
: can't think of another. Sorry).
: If that argument can't convince you, take a look at MS Word, it also
: changes emoticons into stupid smileys.
:>> On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain
:>> text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read
:>> messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font.
:>I will step into this. We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art,
:>that doesn't sound like "60% of ...". Can somebody give me a good *and*
:>simple (easy to remember and figure out with just using the software)
:>rule? It should catch ASCII-tables, but shouldn't trigger, if not
:>appropriate.
Aaah, can't you, people forget inventing new heuristics, which will
always trigger in a wrong place, sooner or later, and do something more
usefull? Do you really think that someone who can read, is unable
to figure out emoticons?
I'd suggest to format text or leave it preformatted, in fixed pitch,
depending on newsgroup, from which it came. Make that setting
configurable per newsgroup, and set up a list of reasonable
defaults. Follow the KISS directive. Please.
: It _could_ be done by requesting people posting ascii-art to precede their
: art by some sort of tag like <ascii> </ascii>, but frankly, i don't think
: ascii-artists would want to do that.
Peter, please remember, that we really would appreciate if usenet
continued to be text/plain based medium. Your suggestion
puts some structure around the text, and therefore is a first step
towards binary postings. You would not want _that_ to happen, would you?
brojek.
,-'-.
:)~~~(:
(: :) I don't know what it is, but it'll get screwed
,---------. in a future Mozilla.
Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> wrote: > > * assume that any non-white-space string with a `@' symbol in it is an > > e-mail address, and turn it into a link Sorry, but this is plain stupid.... Don't these guys know RFC822? An email-address has a more strict format than just a @ somewhere in it.... Or is this just your humble description of that algorithm? ;-) > As long as "turning text into a link" only means colouring it blue and > underlining it, fine, no problem. Sometimes the algorithm will guess > wrong, and the result will look a bit silly, but the information has not > been corrupted. When the algorithm gets it right the user will win > because the program will be more useful than if the program just showed > the string in question as plain text. Well, I can do this both in my mailer (mutt [1] with urlview - which is IMHO a genious program where I can set up the algorithms all myself!) and my newsreader (slrn [2]). That's already done. Well, I can't click directly in the text but have to call a function that displays me all the URLs in the text - but hey, I find this much more suitable than having loads of colored and underlined parts middle in my text/ascii's. I think it's a matter of ... well, taste ;) > > * show anything surrounded by *asterisks* or /slashes/ in bold and > > italic respectively (I've managed to convince them to leave the > > asterisks and slashes there, instead of hiding them) > > As long as the *characters* are all there, not more and not less, no > problem. Right :) Oh, btw., are there also switches to turn all this detections _off_ again? That would be the most niciest feature and solve all the problems there could be *smirks* > > * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > > ASCII art pictures). > > THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) > and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a smiley! > I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a preformatted > table. I think it had something to do with book prices, i.e. work stuff! > not ascii art, and not a smiley! By the time somebody showed me where > the control was to turn that off I had already found an alternative > solution - NOTEPAD! (the WinNT version)) Well, I switchted to gvim [3] (the WinNT version). But on the other hand, as the mozilla-dude said, they'd only turn " :)" into smileys.... I'm asking you now why this should be any better? *scratches* Yes, it would trigger less times but still would trigger too often for drawings. > <snip> > > You can read the discussion of how to detect ASCII art, which is going > > on in news:netscape.public.mozilla.mail-news. > > My server says "no such newsgroup"... :( Maybe only reached via netscape's own newsserver similar to the opera.* groups only from opera.nta.no *hehe* (about their Browser [4]) > Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code > examples in the text... Programmers tend to _not_ use godzilla-like stuff, big, ugly, unhandy ;-) They prefer powerful tools that all fit together, like [1], [2] and [3] *evilgrin* > Actually, I can think of one exception to this. There should be a > setting to ignore sigs. Not that I'd use it (I'd rather have a setting > to turn sigs green) but apparently there are a lot of people who like > being able to do that. You can do that with metamail and preprocess the mails/postings whenever you view them. With mails you can cut them off already via procmail... But as a "programmer" I bet you knew this already *evilgrin* Have fun, and don't take everything too serious *hehe* Alfie [1] <URL:http://www.mutt.org/> - seems to have a problem at the moment? [2] <URL:http://space.mit.edu/~davis/slrn.html> [3] <URL:http://www.vim.org/> [4] <URL:http://www.opera.com/> -- Gerfried Fuchs <URL:mailto:alf...@innocent.com> <URL:http://alfie.ist.org/alfie/>
Ok I thought this would be discussed better in netscape.pubic.mozilla.mail-news but since were having it here... I might as well give my two cents here > >> * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some > >> ASCII art pictures). > >We will leave ":)" alone, we just change " :)", which should be more > >secure. > > Why change usenet and e-mail traditions? And how about ":-)))", ";-)", > ":-*" or "|-/"? Not to mention "@--\--\--" > > Thinking up new emoticons is part of the fun of posting in any NG. > > Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and > headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i > can't think of another. Sorry). > > If that argument can't convince you, take a look at MS Word, it also > changes emoticons into stupid smileys. Totally agree .. Graphic smilies are fun and games - not very useful - either no graphic smilies or option to OPT-IN. btw how would you catch all the hundreds of smilies out there .. :) 8) =8) >8) >;> 8:-) :D ]|> @:) 0:) %} just to name a few .. Would you do a grapic for ALL of them ? And should they all be faces ?.. you could do a cow for ]8> (the cow smilie) (just made that up - it really is part of the fun thinking thoose up!) > >> On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain > >> text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read > >> messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font. > >I will step into this. We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art, > >that doesn't sound like "60% of ...". Can somebody give me a good *and* > >simple (easy to remember and figure out with just using the software) > >rule? It should catch ASCII-tables, but shouldn't trigger, if not > >appropriate. > > It _could_ be done by requesting people posting ascii-art to precede their > art by some sort of tag like <ascii> </ascii>, but frankly, i don't think > ascii-artists would want to do that. A slightly better solution would be an X-field like X-MONOSPACE .. because it would'nt be shown in mail/newsreaders that did'nt support this. Besides you can already do <pre></pre>. Any and all text being passing trough (be it sending or reading) a mail/newsreader should NOT be altered, but be displayed AS IS (and be pr. default displayed in a fixed-width font). That the ideal solution - A basis to work from. THEN we can start doing colouring and URL-parsing , and many of these option should not be on by default but be offered as an OPT-IN option - NOT OPT-OUT. The only thing i would care to put on pr. default would be the colouring of commented text >> he said this | >she said that ) and sig lines. And GOOD url-parsing. like : [DELIMITER][sh|f|h|x]ttp://[A STRING CONTAINING AT LEAST ONE VALID URL CHAR].[VALID TOPLEVEL DOMAIN][DELIMITER] and for mail:(and finger - why have'nt anyone built in a finger client in a mailreader that could click/rightclick on a mailadress and finger it? - it's so much better than the business card attachments ) [DELIMITER]mailto:[A STRING CONTAINING AT LEAST ONE VALID MAILADDRESS CHAR]@[A STRING OF VALID CHARS].[VALID TOPLEVEL DOMAIN][DELIMITER] and for news: [DELIMITER]news:[A STRING CONTAINING AT LEAST TWO VALID CHARS].[A STRING OF VALID CHARS][DELIMITER] It would a shame to see mozilla do ugly urlparsing - OE makes one of the worst mistakes .. file://anychar is made a URL pointing to file://anychar .. What idiot would mail or post something to a newsgroup that references his local hardrive ? OK for *slightly* better verification of ascii-art : ANY text not pure 7bit ascii is not ascii-art - But then again some posts extended-ascii-art. That could be caught by saying ANY not pure 7bit ascii OR 8bit delimiters like : ��������� actually the whole range from alt+192 to alt+254 with a few exceptions. Because with a assumption like this you could be fairly sure that text in foreign languages would be detected correct - Because they use the 192-254 range for special characters. ( f.eks s�dan her ) [ F.x like this ]
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 13:25:52 +0100, Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen (REM...@CeeJay.findhere.com) wrote: : btw how would you catch all the hundreds of smilies out there .. : :) 8) =8) >8) >;> 8:-) :D ]|> @:) 0:) %} just to name a few .. : Would you do a grapic for ALL of them ? http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=312573064&fmt=text Message-ID: <68j7dn$cc...@tron.sci.fi> While that post mostly deals with composing emoticons instead of parsing them, I think the following quote is relevant to the current discussion: > As an exercise for readers, try to devise an algorithm to identify > emoticons as well as possible. Consider for example the following > points: > > * Emoticons may use other characters than "()" as a mouth. "[]{}<>|/\&" > and so on should be easy, but what about :-X , :-9 or :-I ? > * What about letters in other parts of an emoticon? How would you parse > "..about the exam (I got a B-) which we.."? How about "Bob" (a smiley > with sunglasses, potato nose and tongue sticking out ;) )? > * What about emoticons with (parts of) a body, such as the (in)famous > "big girl smiley"? I think it should be obvious that there can be no foolproof way to detect emoticons - what is or is not an emoticon depends ultimately on context, making the problem equally difficult to natural language parsing. The Jargon File calls such deceptively simple problems is "AI-complete", as solving the general case would require true conscious thinking. -- Ilmari Karonen http://www.sci.fi/~iltzu/
Ilmari Karonen wrote: > : We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art, > Marking a paragraph as preformatted text if it contains more than two > (or maybe three) consecutive spaces sounds like a good idea. You may > wish to handle indentation separately, though. I like this rule. I think, I'll add [TAB]s and won't let it trigger on one occurance of " " to allow one typo. We will have the problem of messages from people inserting a doubled space between sentences being displayed monospaced, but I think, that's OK. But I don't know, if I'll have time to implement it, because I need to switch the whole paragraph to pre, what is not so easy with our code. > Actually, I think giving the user a choice to view everything as > preformatted text (with automatic links and such still applied) would > be a very useful feature. I know I'd use it. I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided to view his messages in a proprotional font. -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
Przemyslaw Brojewski wrote: > Peter Punk <ppu...@damnthatspam.hetnet.nl> wrote: > : Why change usenet and e-mail traditions? And how about ":-)))", ";-)", > : ":-*" or "|-/"? Not to mention "@--\--\--" > > : Thinking up new emoticons is part of the fun of posting in any NG. Yes, and we don't even try to catch all of them. > : Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and > : headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i > : can't think of another. Sorry). We have a pref to turn this off. We didn't decide yet, what will be the default. > Aaah, can't you, people forget inventing new heuristics, which will > always trigger in a wrong place, sooner or later, and do something more > usefull? Do you really think that someone who can read, is unable > to figure out emoticons? It wasn't my idea, but I think, it's funny to have graphical smilies. -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
On Mon, 08 Nov 1999 07:46:35 +0100, Ben Bucksch <new...@bucksch.org> provoked the following text: >> * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some >> ASCII art pictures). >We will leave ":)" alone, we just change " :)", which should be more >secure. Why change usenet and e-mail traditions? And how about ":-)))", ";-)", ":-*" or "|-/"? Not to mention "@--\--\--" Thinking up new emoticons is part of the fun of posting in any NG. Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i can't think of another. Sorry). If that argument can't convince you, take a look at MS Word, it also changes emoticons into stupid smileys. >> On the positive side, they are discussing ways of detecting when plain >> text is ASCII art and when it isn't, so that even people who read >> messages in a proportional font will see ASCII art in a fixed-width font. >I will step into this. We still have no good rule to detect ASCII-art, >that doesn't sound like "60% of ...". Can somebody give me a good *and* >simple (easy to remember and figure out with just using the software) >rule? It should catch ASCII-tables, but shouldn't trigger, if not >appropriate. It _could_ be done by requesting people posting ascii-art to precede their art by some sort of tag like <ascii> </ascii>, but frankly, i don't think ascii-artists would want to do that. >Currently, we walk char-by-char through the message, an algorithm that >honors that has better chances to be implemented. Of course, I can't >even garanty, if such an detection will make it into Mozilla. I'm not wild about the idea, but _if_ it makes it into Mozilla, please make sure the ascii-art is being displayed in a fixed-pitch font.
On 9 Nov 1999 11:43:06 GMT, Przemyslaw Brojewski <bro...@kis.p.lodz.pl> provoked the following text: >: It _could_ be done by requesting people posting ascii-art to precede their >: art by some sort of tag like <ascii> </ascii>, but frankly, i don't think >: ascii-artists would want to do that. > >Peter, please remember, that we really would appreciate if usenet >continued to be text/plain based medium. Your suggestion >puts some structure around the text, and therefore is a first step >towards binary postings. You would not want _that_ to happen, would you? No i wouldn't, but i saw a possible solution to a problem. As i said earlier, i don't think we can count on the cooperation of people to surround their art with tags. At first it would be one tag, then two and eventually we would end up having to use hundreds of tags, only to make our stuff presentable. I think it's bad enough that people post and mail in HTML, in fact, the only time i want to see HTML is when i surf the net. I also said that i am not a fan of the whole idea of detecting ascii-art. This is because there _will_ be errors in detecting ascii-art. -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ Manual Writer's Creed: Garbage in, gospel out.
On Tue, 09 Nov 1999 20:18:40 +0100, Ben Bucksch <new...@bucksch.org> provoked the following text: >> : Why change usenet and e-mail traditions? And how about ":-)))", ";-)", >> : ":-*" or "|-/"? Not to mention "@--\--\--" >> : Thinking up new emoticons is part of the fun of posting in any NG. >Yes, and we don't even try to catch all of them. I really don't see why we "need" it anyway to have smileys converted to a single char... >> : Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and >> : headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i >> : can't think of another. Sorry). >We have a pref to turn this off. We didn't decide yet, what will be the >default. That would make the prog only larger, and for what i've heared is that the whole idea was to make the prog smaller. >> Aaah, can't you, people forget inventing new heuristics, which will >> always trigger in a wrong place, sooner or later, and do something more >> usefull? Do you really think that someone who can read, is unable >> to figure out emoticons? >It wasn't my idea, but I think, it's funny to have graphical smilies. Try in MS-Word to make a ":-)))", you'll see a smileyface and two closing brackets. I'ts annoying as heck! -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ If it wasn't for C, we'd be using BASI, PASAL, and OBOL!
Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > Sorry, but this is plain stupid.... Don't these guys know RFC822? I think, you can answer this question for yourself. > email-address has a more strict format than just a @ somewhere in it.... > Or is this just your humble description of that algorithm? ;-) The latter. > > As long as "turning text into a link" only means colouring it blue and > > underlining it, fine, no problem. > Well, I can do this both in my mailer (mutt [1] with urlview - which is > IMHO a genious program where I can set up the algorithms all myself!) > and my newsreader (slrn [2]). That's already done. You will not only be able to change the look of the message with CSS, but also add algorithms you like using JavaScript. BTW: You can change the look&feel of Mozilla via CSS, HTML, XML and JS. > Right :) Oh, btw., are there also switches to turn all this detections > _off_ again? Yes. > hand, as the mozilla-dude said, they'd only turn " :)" into smileys.... My name is Ben Bucksch, not "the mozilla-dude". > > Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code > > examples in the text... > > Programmers tend to _not_ use godzilla-like stuff, big, ugly, unhandy > ;-) They prefer powerful tools that all fit together, like [1], [2] and > [3] *evilgrin* It seems like you don't know, what you're talking of (assuming you mean Mozilla with "godzilla-like stuff". > Have fun, and don't take everything too serious *hehe* Bashing is not funny for me. -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > Veronica Karlsson wrote: > > As long as the *characters* are all there, not more and not less, no > > problem. > > Right :) Oh, btw., are there also switches to turn all this detections > _off_ again? That would be the most niciest feature and solve all the > problems there could be *smirks* Definitely! :-) > > Programmers want to use newsgropus to discuss things, and include code > > examples in the text... > > Programmers tend to _not_ use godzilla-like stuff, big, ugly, unhandy > ;-) They prefer powerful tools that all fit together, like [1], [2] and > [3] *evilgrin* I use the news reader in Netscape 3 (unix version). It works just fine (and it doesn't "get in the way", I only read news when I'm at school, and then I usually have Netscape open anyway...). I do NOT use the one in Netscape 4 however (it does Evil Things to my mail files, confuses my email program to the point that it refuses to function and causes nasty Over Quota problems. I was quite happy when a friend told me how to fix it so that I only get an error message if I accidentally click on an email link!). Will I use the new Mozilla's news program? Maybe, if it's good (sooner or later I will have to "move forward" and get something new, that's just the way the world works, occasionally you have to get new stuff...). > With mails you can cut them off already via > procmail... But as a "programmer" I bet you knew this already *evilgrin* You can skip the quotation marks around the word "programmer" in that sentence. > Have fun, and don't take everything too serious *hehe* You must be mistaking me for somebody else. -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> wrote: > Gerfried Fuchs wrote: > > Have fun, and don't take everything too serious *hehe* > > You must be mistaking me for somebody else. It's just that people tend to misunderstand me.... I don't know why - that's just the way it is. And well, it just happend again, if you see Ben Bucksch's answer to my posting. So I mostly always try to add such a line to postings that might be misinterpreted - but somehow this one was maybe not clear enough... *sigh* So long! Alf*and again misunderstood :-((*ie -- Gerfried Fuchs <URL:mailto:alf...@innocent.com> <URL:http://alfie.ist.org/alfie/>
On Tue, 9 Nov 1999 21:59:04 +0100, "Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen" <REM...@CeeJay.findhere.com> provoked the following text: >> > : Just leave emoticons alone and save yourself a lot of programming and >> > : headache and us a lot of angryness (angryness is not the right word, but i >> > : can't think of another. Sorry). >> We have a pref to turn this off. We didn't decide yet, what will be the >> default. >Off - Definatly off You have my support in this. >> It wasn't my idea, but I think, it's funny to have graphical smilies. >Yes , maybe for a few weeks - Then it start to get really old. >But you could also just do colouring of the smiles. >BTW ... you asked for a way to detect ascii-art.(and i presented an idea to detect if it was >not ..any ways) >Here's an idea : >Any message sent to or from (that is a reply to) a newsgroup containing to word "ascii" is >ascii-art ! >That would catch alt.ascii-art - alt.ascii-art.animation - rec.arts.ascii and the foreign >ascii groups too. >The messenger should also be aware of this when sending to thoose groups. >That method seems pretty failsafe - I can't find any flaws in it. I can, i sometimes post ASCII-art to other groups if the subject is appropriate for that group. Or suppose a few of us decide to create a group called something like "alt.text-pix"? -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ Cooperation can only be reached if we work together.
> >BTW ... you asked for a way to detect ascii-art.(and i presented an idea to detect if it was > >not ..any ways) > >Here's an idea : > >Any message sent to or from (that is a reply to) a newsgroup containing to word "ascii" is > >ascii-art ! > >That would catch alt.ascii-art - alt.ascii-art.animation - rec.arts.ascii and the foreign > >ascii groups too. > >The messenger should also be aware of this when sending to thoose groups. > >That method seems pretty failsafe - I can't find any flaws in it. > > I can, i sometimes post ASCII-art to other groups if the subject is > appropriate for that group. > Or suppose a few of us decide to create a group called something like > "alt.text-pix"? It was replace other other ascii-art tests ... It was just meant to be an aid in finding out when it's ascii - not when it not ascii. Other testing mechanismes would be applied if it was tested to other groups
On Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:54:08 +0100, "Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen" <REM...@CeeJay.findhere.com> provoked the following text: >> >BTW ... you asked for a way to detect ascii-art.(and i presented an idea to detect if it was >> >not ..any ways) >> >Here's an idea : >> >Any message sent to or from (that is a reply to) a newsgroup containing to word "ascii" is >> >ascii-art ! >> >That would catch alt.ascii-art - alt.ascii-art.animation - rec.arts.ascii and the >> >foreign ascii groups too. >> >The messenger should also be aware of this when sending to thoose groups. >> >That method seems pretty failsafe - I can't find any flaws in it. >> I can, i sometimes post ASCII-art to other groups if the subject is >> appropriate for that group. >> Or suppose a few of us decide to create a group called something like >> "alt.text-pix"? > >It was replace other other ascii-art tests ... >It was just meant to be an aid in finding out when it's ascii - not when it not ascii. I think you're going the wrong way around. How about this: If it's HTML, it's not ASCII-art. I know, it's a bad one because it would lead to an increase of posting in HTML in the groups. -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ Virus detected! (P)our chicken soup on motherboard?
Ben Bucksch wrote: >Ilmari Karonen wrote: >> Actually, I think giving the user a choice to view everything as >> preformatted text (with automatic links and such still applied) would >> be a very useful feature. I know I'd use it. > >I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the >default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided >to view his messages in a proprotional font. Does this also mean the default for sending a Usenet-message is plain text instead of text/HTML? If so, this would bridge the gap between newby users and Use- netiquette IMHO. The common newby-flame is bashing him/her for posting in text/HTML... and MS can't be held responsible solely for that. (Just talking about talk-newsgroups here) If not, did Netscape (or the other major player for that matter) ever consider that a "Usenetter" is different from a "Maildork"? IMHO it would be an improvement if you'd distinguish between those two target groups. For News: text = OK, for e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. You were explicitly not the Mozilla "spokesman", but are you willing to comment on the above? -- mic
> >I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the > >default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided > >to view his messages in a proprotional font. > > Does this also mean the default for sending a Usenet-message is > plain text instead of text/HTML? As i understand it mik - yes. But i'm sure that "the mozilla dude *g*" , Mr. Ben Bucksch will want to reply himself.
On Sat, 13 Nov 1999, miK wrote: > Ben Bucksch wrote: > > >Ilmari Karonen wrote: <SNIP> > >I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the > >default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided > >to view his messages in a proprotional font. > What a horrible thing.. Defaults like that IMHO are BAD.. > Does this also mean the default for sending a Usenet-message is > plain text instead of text/HTML? > > If so, this would bridge the gap between newby users and Use- > netiquette IMHO. The common newby-flame is bashing him/her > for posting in text/HTML... and MS can't be held responsible > solely for that. (Just talking about talk-newsgroups here) > Well.. MS can be help responsible for a newbies inexperienced knowledge.. But they can sure as hell be held responsible for making newbies runn lame ass shit programs..(well they do have a choise but due to majority and inexperience windows is considered the best option..right?) > between those two target groups. For News: text = OK, for > e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend > isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. > <SNIP> First of all..I use pine..wich is text based..and I HATE to recive email that contain anything other than TEXT..This we're also the case before I started using linux.. It is throught the defaults build into text based extention handling software that we see the dawn of such programs as melissa and bubbleboy.. To be honest I feer for those who will be using WINDOWS 2000.. It has a lot of wrongly set defaults..like file sharing with write access to anyone as default.. Stealth security and buildt in telnet server that could be enabled with javascript / vba script in ann email and then used freely just like the machines owner ran BO / Netbus.. It's the inability to understand these aspects that allows hackers to pry on feeble windows users.. Oh well.. I couild go on for hours like that.. Bottom line is.. Just becourse you think html can enhance the email reading.. Don't judge it as safely.. Regards MERLiiN
On Sun, 14 Nov 1999 15:09:10 +0100, Eldar Berg Marcussen <mer...@ulven.com> provoked the following text: >> between those two target groups. For News: text = OK, for >> e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend >> isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. >> ><SNIP> >First of all..I use pine..wich is text based..and I HATE to recive email >that contain anything other than TEXT.. HEAR HEAR!! <snip!> >It's the inability to understand these aspects that allows hackers to pry >on feeble windows users.. > >Oh well.. I couild go on for hours like that.. Bottom line is.. Just >becourse you think html can enhance the email reading.. Don't judge it as >safely.. HEAR HEAR again! Proof of the insecurity of HTML-enabled mail- or newsreaders is the recent discovery of the Bubbleboy virus. Now, Bubbleboy can only function in IE5 but i think it won't be long until a similar virus is built that can wreak havoc in _any_ HTML-capable mail- or newsreader. -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ Have you seen my mind? It wandered again.
> miK wrote: > > Ben Bucksch wrote: > > >I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the > > >default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided > > >to view his messages in a proprotional font. > > Does this also mean the default for sending a Usenet-message is > > plain text instead of text/HTML? > > The display has nothing to do with composing. I thought so. Just checking. > > If so, this would bridge the gap between newby users and Use- > > netiquette IMHO. The common newby-flame is bashing him/her > > for posting in text/HTML... and MS can't be held responsible > > solely for that. (Just talking about talk-newsgroups here) > > > > If not, did Netscape (or the other major player for that matter) > > ever consider that a "Usenetter" is different from a "Maildork"? > > I disagree. If I don't know, if the recipient can read HTML or not, I > have to assume currently, he cannot. That sounds reasonable. > > IMHO it would be an improvement if you'd distinguish > > between those two target groups. For News: text = OK, for > > e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend > > isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. To make myself clear. Like you, I'd rather have both News and E-mail default to plain text (after all this is a resident of alt.ascii-art speaking). But I had the impression that it was Netscape's policy to encourage HTML-mail. Therefore the compromise... > We had a very long discussion on n.p.m.mail-news about that topic. Yes, I've read it. Kinda lost track of all the pro's and cons and what the outcome was, but you've solved that. > However, I wasn't able to change something (towards plaintext). Sorry for that. > The current default behaviour for mail in Messenger 4.x is (details are > certainly wrong): > Compose in HTML > User hits "Send" > Check, if all recipients like HTML > +-yes > | Send HTML > +-no > Check, if there's formatting in the msgs > +-no > | Send Plain Text > +-yes > Ask, what to do: Send TXT, Send HTML or both (both is selected). > If there's more than one recipient, this can be set for each > individually. > > I don't know about news, but it might be similar. It is, TMK. > In 5.0, the plan is to default news to plain text and mail similar to > 4.x IIRC. Well, despite the latter this _is_ a slight improvement. Mic
miK wrote: > Ben Bucksch wrote: > >I forgot to mention: You not only have the choice to do so, it is the > >default. We need the pre detection only for the case, the user decided > >to view his messages in a proprotional font. > Does this also mean the default for sending a Usenet-message is > plain text instead of text/HTML? The display has nothing to do with composing. > If so, this would bridge the gap between newby users and Use- > netiquette IMHO. The common newby-flame is bashing him/her > for posting in text/HTML... and MS can't be held responsible > solely for that. (Just talking about talk-newsgroups here) > > If not, did Netscape (or the other major player for that matter) > ever consider that a "Usenetter" is different from a "Maildork"? I disagree. If I don't know, if the recipient can read HTML or not, I have to assume currently, he cannot. > IMHO it would be an improvement if you'd distinguish > between those two target groups. For News: text = OK, for > e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend > isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. We had a very long discussion on n.p.m.mail-news about that topic. However, I wasn't able to change something (towards plaintext). The current default behaviour for mail in Messenger 4.x is (details are certainly wrong): Compose in HTML User hits "Send" Check, if all recipients like HTML +-yes | Send HTML +-no Check, if there's formatting in the msgs +-no | Send Plain Text +-yes Ask, what to do: Send TXT, Send HTML or both (both is selected). If there's more than one recipient, this can be set for each individually. I don't know about news, but it might be similar. In 5.0, the plan is to default news to plain text and mail similar to 4.x IIRC. -- Ben Bucksch http://www.bucksch.org
On Sun, 07 Nov 1999 19:29:50 +0100, Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> wrote: >> * show :) or :-) as a smiley face graphic (which could be awful for some >> ASCII art pictures). > >THIS is corrupting the information! I had to use Word once (summer 98) >and I HATED how it did that! (and I wasn't even trying to make a smiley! >I had a colon followed by a parentheses, as part of a preformatted >table. I think it had something to do with book prices, i.e. work stuff! >not ascii art, and not a smiley! By the time somebody showed me where >the control was to turn that off I had already found an alternative >solution - NOTEPAD! (the WinNT version)) Fix: Tools -> AutoCorrect and remove those offending autoformatting entries! Works in Office95 and 97. Haven't tried 2000, so I can't verify. Not the most obvious place, but a simple Help search gave me the answer in an instant. (rare occasion ;-) You can also turn off most autoformatting options too. Another ultra-irritating feature... I hate the way a piece of software thinks it knows better how I want my documents to look.. Wonder how many computer illiterate people are just stuck with these irritating features just because no-one's told them how to read Help documents? -- Universal CBM, PEZ, and TI-calc nut, Scout, Glider pilot, "Student" Email: vjo...@sci.fi, URL: http://www.sci.fi/~vjouppi/ GSM: +358-40-5679999, IRCNet: Jope "I see", said the blind man as he picked up his hammer and saw.
*giggle* > HEAR HEAR!! "Me Too ! Me Too!" > HEAR HEAR again! "Me double Too , .. triple too even"
Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen wrote: > *giggle* > > > HEAR HEAR!! > > "Me Too ! Me Too!" > > > HEAR HEAR again! > > "Me double Too , .. triple too even" Snipped from CeeJay's header: X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 Schizo! :p obASCII: A wotsit... _ .-._.-. _ .- ' ' -. ( ) \ / | | | | | | | | | .-. | |___( )___| __________________________ =-= / http://www.microsoft.com ) o ____(__________________________/
Eldar Berg Marcussen wrote: >miK wrote: > > > Ben Bucksch wrote: > > > <snip> > > > For News: text = OK, for > > e-mail: all formats will do. Just because talking to a friend > > isn't as drastic as YELLING TO THE WORLD,.. duologue. > > > <snip> > It is throught the defaults build into text based > extention handling software that we see the dawn of such programs as > melissa and bubbleboy.. Yes, you're right about security. My statement "for e-mail all formats will do" was indeed a bit radical. :) > To be honest I feer for those who will be using > WINDOWS 2000.. It has a lot of wrongly set defaults..like file sharing > with write access to anyone as default.. Stealth security and buildt in > telnet server that could be enabled with javascript / vba script in ann > email and then used freely just like the machines owner ran BO / Netbus.. You're diverging. HTML and Javascript/VB-script are interrelated but different things. > It's the inability to understand these aspects that allows hackers to pry > on feeble windows users.. ... or on any "feeble-minded" comp user at all. That's why it's so important that default settings are OK (in agreement with Netiquette, secure, etc.). > Oh well.. I couild go on for hours like that.. Bottom line is.. Just > becourse you think html can enhance the email reading.. Don't judge it as > safely.. TMK HTML itself is harmless. Tho' it might be unreadable to some and it sure is annoying to many others. cheers :) mic -- I'm pretty sure the United Forces of Gates Bashing can come up with a caption or 2... Anyone? :) _,-\/-,_ \ / \_.._/ _,/ \,_ / \ / \ ,\ ) ( /, (__/ .''. \__) \,_|| / | ||\ | | /|| \| () || () // || || // || || // || || // || /\ -- '' -'-' ^^' )( '^^-- '' -'-' (==) `~`
> ObAsciis: > > H > | > H--C--H > | > OH > > Methanol > (The 'alcohol' sometimes used as car fuel) > > H H > | | > H--C--C--H > | | > H OH > > Ethanol > (The 'alcohol' found in booze) > > H H > | | > H--C--C--H > | | > OH OH > > Ethan-1,2-diol (ethylene glycol) > (The 'alcohol' found in antifreeze) > > H H H > | | | > H--C--C--C--H > | | | > OH OH OH > > Propan-1,2,3-triol (glycerine) > > H H H > | | | > H--C--C--C--H > | | | > OH OH OH > > Propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol) > (The 'alcohol' used in cassette tape/floppy disk/CD cleaners) > > _ _ > | | > H H H H | H H | H H > \ / \ | | | | | | / > C==C C==C--|--C--C--|--C==C > / \ / | | | | \ > H H H | H H | H > |_ _|n > > L: ethene (ethylene) > R: poly-ethene (poly-ethylene) = polythene > > > _ _ > | | > F F F F | F F | F F > \ / \ | | | | | | / > C==C C==C--|--C--C--|--C==C > / \ / | | | | \ > F F F | F F | F > |_ _|n > > L: tetrafluoroethene (tetrafluoroethylene) > R: poly-tetrafluoroethene (poly-tetrafluoroethylene) > = PTFE = Teflon(tm) > > _ _ > | | > H H H H | H H | H H > \ / \ | | | | | | / > C==C C--C--|--C--C--|--C==C > / \ / | | | | \ > H Cl H | H Cl | Cl > |_ _|n > > L: vinyl chloride (chloro-ethene / chloro-ethylene) > R: poly-vinyl chloride (PVC) > > H H > \ / > C==C H > / \ / > H C==C > / \ > H--C C--H > \\ // > C--C > / \ > H H > > styrene (ack, more complicated than I thought!) > > H H H H > \ / \ / > C--C C--C > // \\ // \\ > H--C C--H H--C C--H > \ / \ / > C==C C==C > H / \ H / \ > \ / H \ / H > C====C C====C > ,' `. ,' `. > C====C C====C C====C > \ H / \ H / > \ / H \ / H > C==C C==C > / \ / \ > H--C C--H H--C C--H > \\ // \\ // > C--C C--C > / \ / \ > H H H H > > 4 repeating units of polystyrene > (what a mess!) Nerd! *lol*
In article<Pine.GSO.4.20.9911172357310.17440-100000@xena>, Ben Norwood <bdn...@aber.ac.uk> writes: > H H H > | | | >H--C--C--C--H > | | | > OH OH OH > >Propan-1,2,3-triol (glycerine) > > H H H H H H > | | | | | | >H--C--C--C--H H--C--C--C--H > | | | | | | > H OH H H H OH > >Propan-2-ol (isopropyl alcohol) Propan-1-ol (propyl alcohol) |~/ |~/ ~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~ P | Woof Woof, Glug Glug ||____________|| 0 | P O | Who Drowned the Judge's Dog? | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O O | answers on *---|_______________ @__o0 | O L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L and<a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"></a>XemuSP4(:)
On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:04:07 GMT, mic@dataweb.BOUNCE_SPAM.nl (miK) provoked the following text: >> > HEAR HEAR!! >> "Me Too ! Me Too!" >> > HEAR HEAR again! >> "Me double Too , .. triple too even" >Snipped from CeeJay's header: >X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2615.200 > Schizo! :p LOL!!! >obASCII: > >A wotsit... > _ .-._.-. _ > .- ' ' -. > ( ) > \ / > | | > | | > | | > | | > | .-. | > |___( )___| __________________________ > =-= / http://www.microsoft.com ) > o ____(__________________________/ > That's not a wotsit, everyone can see that it's a wachamacallit... :-)) -- Peter Punk \ / ---\\\\--- / \ IBM: Intensely Boring Machines
Peter Punk wrote: > On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 21:04:07 GMT, mic@dataweb.BOUNCE_SPAM.nl (miK) > provoked the following text: > > >A wotsit... > > _ .-._.-. _ > > .- ' ' -. > > ( ) > > \ / > > | | > > | | > > | | > > | | > > | .-. | > > |___( )___| __________________________ > > =-= / http://www.microsoft.com ) > > o ____(__________________________/ > > > > That's not a wotsit, everyone can see that it's a wachamacallit... :-)) tiszoongodvergetenjezusteringheekanrffnietopkomezoondingetjeweetjewelwaarjeop druktendandoetieutnietmaarsomsookwelkweetutegniethoorzeggutmaarasjeutwel weetwantanderswordtikhelemaalgeknietslapenpillenemenenzojekentdatwelzogek wordikdanzielighehmaarhebgeenmeelijwantdathebikooknietmetjoudatismuneertena zoondingheefttochgewoonunnaamlaatmedenkenlanggeledenkaankermitengonzoenzotis toggewoondiekokdieuitzwedenkwamtochjatochnietanendiedoetnounietmuurdiebuur diebuurmaarietsdatdaarhelemaalnietoprijmtzoietstoch?asjijutnounognieweetdan weetikutniemeer... (That's Dutch) > -- > Peter Punk > \ / > ---\\\\--- > / \ G o \o ? \ J / \_+/ > > IBM: Intensely Boring Machines Smart-ass mickey definitely taking over now: "Are you familiar with the term 'oxymoron'?" (rijkrijmmetmoronmaardatheefternixmeetemakenvoordezekerheiddatjenietdenkt datikjeafzittezeikenjemotutmeerzoekeninlessennederlandsopdemiddelbareschool enzoparadoxtautologieendatsoortdingenjouw-ibm-isernamelijkzo 1) ____ /\ \ ____ ____ ____ / \___\ ____ /\ \/\ \/\ \ _\ / __/_ /\ \ / \___\ \__/ \___\ /\ \/_/\ \ / \___\ \ / / / \ / / / \__/ \___\ _\ / __/_ \/___/\/___/\/___/ _\ / \__/ __/_ /\ \/_/\ \ / \___\ /\ \/___/ \/\ \ / \__/ \___\ _\ / / / \___\ \___\ \___\ _\ / \__/ __/_ /\ \/___/ _\ / / / / / __/_ /\ \/___/ \/\ \ / \___\ /\ \/___/\/___/\/_/\ \ / \___\ \___\ \___\ _\ / __/_ ____ ____ / \___\ / \___\ \ / / / / / / /\ \/_/\ \/\ \/\ \ \ / / \ / / \/___/\/___/\/___/ / \___\ \___\ \___\ \___\ \/___/ \/___/ \ / / / / / / / / \/___/\/___/\/___/\/___/
miK wrote:
<snip>
> (That's Dutch)
<snip>
Dunno what that was... In any case it wasn't comprehensible,
funny, whatever... it wasn't even offensive...
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mic
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