Original Usenet thread from alt.ascii-art, started 21 May 1998.
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Technology evolution and ascii pics
alt.ascii-art
· 24 messages · 21 May 1998 - 30 May 1998
This article is a rather long essay without cute pics ;-))
I wrote this essay because some people seem to think that the Outlook Express
issue discussed elsewhere is an isolated one. I do not think that this is an
isolated issue, on the contrary, I think that this is a manifestation of
on-going technology evolution, and more manifestations are sure to come. This
essay is to first describe the on-going technology evolution and to
subsequently suggest what we can do to protect our ascii pics.
Well, enough for the prologue, let's go on with the essay ...
Not so long ago, the world was simple for ascii pics. Whatever you drew, and
as long as you followed a few simple rules, ascii pics will be displayed
correctly by email and newsgroup software.
One of the very fundamental assumptions that makes this simple world work, is
that both the maker and the viewer of the ascii pics use simple, plain
vanilla, text editors. Yes, that right, email and newsgroup software have
built-in text editors. Simple, plain vanilla, text editors ... that is, until
recently ...
=> The simple, plain vanilla, text editors built into email and newsgroup
software are evolving towards more sophisticated word processors <=
These email and newsgroup software with their built-in word processors need to
be sold to the buying public, and therefore need to have features that makes
life easier for the user community at large. One example of such a useful
feature is the automatic elimination of a blank space that a hasty user has
inadvertently left at the beginning of a line. How time consuming, how
user-friendly, how nice!
Well, what is nice for general purpose applications may not be so nice for a
special purpose application such as ascii pics. Automatic elimination of a
blank space can obviously damage an ascii pic.
In time, other word processing features that are useful for general purpose
applications such as automatic conversion to curly/smart quotes, automatic
capitalization, automatic conversion of a top line to a header, etc will make
their way into email and newsgroup software. That means, that in time, email
and newsgroup software are more and more likely to do damage to ascii pics.
This will (slowly) break down the very fundamental assumption that makes ascii
pics work in the simple world alluded to in the above. The maker of the ascii
pic may still use a simple, plain vanilla, text editor. However, more and more
viewers will no longer view ascii pics with simple, plain vanilla, text
editors. More and more viewers will use word processors that will have more
and more features that can cause damage to ascii pics.
This concludes the first part of this essay describing the on-going technology
evolution and how it creates problems for ascii pics.
Let's continue with the second part of the essay and ask ourselves the
question, how do we protect our ascii pics? Or to rephrase the question, how
do we make sure that viewers will see the same pic as the maker of the ascii
pic?
Well, there are short term and long term solutions. Short term solutions look
at email and newsgroup software in actual use and recommend workarounds. An
example of a short term solution is described in the article "Usable pagewidth
for ascii pics" that I recently posted in this newsgroup. The recommended
workaround is not to follow the conventional wisdom of using columns #1 to
#80, but to use a more cautious and narrower pagewidth, from column #3 to
column #73.
What about the long term solutions? How can we protect our ascii pics in this
changing world in the long run?
Well, we need to create a simple world again, where maker and viewer of ascii
pics use essentially the same tools. An example of such a simple world is the
"ascii" on AOL (Just look at the pure technical aspects here, ignore the
cultural/ethical aspects of intellectual property for the moment.) In this
example, both maker and viewer use the proprietary email and newsgroup
software from AOL and it is this simple world again that makes this kind of
"ascii" work (within AOL.)
How about creating a simple world outside of AOL? A simple world that works
for ascii pics for the global Internet?
Unfortunately, we cannot create such a simple world based on word processors,
since there is no standard for word processors. In other words, the built-in
word processors of email and newsgroup software will have bestowed on them
different general purpose "feature" sets, which will damage ascii pics in many
different ways. And to say things more drastically, the more advanced the
"feature" set, the more likely the damage to the ascii pic is going to occur,
and the more extensive the damage to the ascii pic is likely going to be.
However, there is an html standard that we can use to create such a simple
world again, one that works for ascii pics for the global Internet. And, as we
have seen from past discussions in this newsgroup (or were these discussions
more like wars ;-)) all we need is a rather small subset of carefully chosen
html tags to make sure that both maker and viewer see the same ascii pic.
In other words, the maker of the ascii pic provides display instructions in
the form of html tags to the viewing tool, in order to make sure that the
viewing tool displays the ascii pic correctly. This is to be contrasted to the
use of the built-in word processors of email and newsgroup software. As
viewing tools, these word processors work without the benefit of display
instructions (i.e. html tags.) These word processors will try to display the
ascii pic information with the general purpose "feature" set bestowed on them,
which can and will damage ascii pics as we saw in the above.
This concludes the second part of this essay, which describes short term and
long term solutions on how to protect our ascii pics.
Let's continue with the third and last part of this essay (my goodness, when
is this crazy guy going to stop?) on the _timescale_ of this technology evolution.
In other words, when exactly will email and newsgroup software become so
"feature" rich, that they will inevitably do serious damage to ascii pics? Or
to rephrase the question, what is the timescale for html becoming necessary to
ensure undamaged ascii pics?
That is difficult to say, on the one hand, entrenched technologies tend to
live "forever" ... typewrites are still being used. On the other hand,
Internet technologies including email and newsgroup technologies are evolving
at break-neck speeds ... Netscape 4.0.5 that I installed a few days ago has
_html_ as the default option for email and newsgroups, _not) plain text.
However, whereas the timescale is difficult to predict, the trend is clear,
i.e. the need for protecting ascii pics with html (display instructions) is
clearly becoming greater and greater with time.
In summary (holy cow, this guy is indeed a very, very, very disturbed
psychopath, just look at his portrait!) this essay has:
in the first part, described the evolution of email and newsgroup software and
how general purpose "feature" sets of their built-in word processors can and
will do damage to ascii pics;
in the second part, described short term and long term solutions for
protecting ascii pics. Short term solutions are workarounds to prevent
automatic manipulations by the built-in word processors of email and newsgroup
software. An example is the use of columns #3 to #73 only for ascii pics to
prevent damage by Outlook Express for Windows. Long term solutions include the
use of html with its intrinsic set of display instructions in the form of html tags;
in the third and last part, stated that the timescale for this "ascii pic
endangering" technology evolution is difficult to predict, but that the trend
is clear, i.e. towards greater danger and towards greater necessity of
protecting ascii pics with display instructions, presumably in the form of
html tags.
Print this essay out!
Or I will torture you!
Read it on the screen!
/
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.' .-. ><(@)> ) ( <(@)>< .-.`.
(("`( - | | - )'"))
/ \\#)\ (.(_).) /(#//\
' / ) (( / | | \ )) (`.`.
.' (.) \ .md88o88bm. / (.) \)
/ /| / \ `Y88888Y' / \ | \ \
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/ /(O)/ /| `.___.' | \\(O) \
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_.--/--/'( ) ) ( ) ) )`\-\-\-._ The Dreaded Psychopath Pete Casso
( ( ( ) ( ) ) ( ) ) ( ) ) ) ( ) ) Portrait by Veronica Karlsson
Matthew Thomas wrote: <snip> Thanks for the report card, although my psychopathologically enlarged ego thinks that I deserve an A+ ;-)) > Whether we need to buy them is another matter. :-) I was just describing how these "features" are making their way into bloatware, I am not really making a marketing statement. > I agree with that in general -- people will be more impressed by the > appearance of bold, italic, font color *etc* buttons in their message > composition windows, than they will be by being told the simple fact > that these `features' actually waste time by causing the sender to > concentrate on form rather than content. Consider how much longer > e-mails will take to write when you've got the tempation of changing the > font and layout all over the place ... As an aside, the same applies to > word processors themselves: windows festooned with toolbars, animated > help, and all that guff only distract people ... but I'm getting > sidetracked; that's a matter for news:comp.human-factors. The point is, > the problem is worse in e-mail, because so many of us need to get > e-mails written and sent quickly. Thanks for generally agreeing, but I think you missed the point here, the topic is ascii pics, not emails. > *I think Pete meant `time-saving' here. But this example in particular, > I do not understand. Is a `hasty user' *likely* to accidentally leave > spaces at the beginning of a line? I don't think so. I would understand > it if the program removed *all* duplicate spaces (including those at > the beginning of a line), on the grounds of being more > word-processor-ish; why word processors ever let you type two > consecutive spaces is a mystery to me. But just to remove a couple from > the beginning of a line seems bizarre. Oops! Yes, it should be _time-saving_. Well, I am not going to agree or disagree whether this specific "feature" makes things better of worse for the user. That is not the point. The point is that these "features" _are_ being introduced, for better or for worse for the general user. And as far ascii pics is concerned, that is never for the better and always for the worse. (The best for ascii pics is _zero_ "features") > In that regard I think we ASCII artists are starting to feel like > stonemasons, or cobblers, or whatever -- in this era, except on special > occasions, our craft is becoming obsolete. (Aargh! Heresy! Burn Matthew > at the stake! ...) As time goes on, all the reasons for ASCII art will > disappear -- referring to the FAQ here: (1) the universal text format > will be HTML; (2) the difference in file size between ASCII art and > pictures will be irrelevant, as sound and video files make even the > largest GIF trivial in size; and (3) we will be able to copy pictures > of any sort from one file to another just by dragging the mouse (or > whatever); so we will only be left with (4) -- `it's fun to do'. I think that you tie ascii art way too much to media and tecniques, unnecessarily so. Of course, ascii art uses media and techniques as any other art form does, but at the same time and just like any other art form, ascii art is by itself and of itself, _not_ defined by medium and techniques. As media and techniques are evolving, ascii art will use those evolved media and techniques, as long as ascii art does that, it will _never_ become obsolete. > I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. HTML is not a WYSIWIS > (what-you-see-is-what-I-see) medium, and never will be, due to the > variety of software programs, OSs, and machines used to view it, and > the variety of users who use those software programs, OSs, and > machines. Despite <PRE>, <FONT> and all the rest of it, there is no > getting away from the fact that HTML was designed as a *semantic* > language, and the way particular HTML tags are rendered (or ignored) > depends on all these things. (A few examples: the Nokia Communicator, > the lynx and Opera Web browsers, and style sheets.) > > ASCII, on the other hand, very nearly is a WYSIWIS medium. The `very > nearly' is due to the use of serif and sans-serif fonts and fonts of > different aspect ratios, but these differences are trivial in most > cases. ascii is WYSIWIS only if both maker and viewer use simple text editors. But my whole point is, that this assumption is (slowly) becoming invalid with email and newsgroup software (slowly) becoming "feature" laden bloatware. The point will be reached where html will have the better chances for WYSIWIS, because it has the ascii information _plus_ diplay instructions (in the form of html tags.) > The only HTML tags required for ASCII art are <PRE> and </PRE>; > Netscape Composer has a `Formatted' choice in its style menu which > inserts these (although that's hardly obvious, is it?) That's taking a myopic view. If ascii art as an art form by itself and of itself (see above) makes use of the html medium and techniques, then broader possibilities open up, such as no limits on pagewidth, half spaces, font faces, colour, etc. See also a parallel article of mine in this thread. > Yes :-( . I mentioned this when writing the FAQ last year. > Overeagerness on Netscape's part, I think, as well as a reckless > disregard for bandwidth. I fear that Netscape may not care much about your FAQ :-)) > I think there is an alternative long-term strategy, and that is to > petition Mozilla.org, and other e-mail program producers, to provide > easier selection of whether a message is to be sent as plain text or in > HTML -- for example, some sort of drop-down menu in the composition > window. This wouldn't be just for us a.a-aers; many, many people have > ASCII art of some description in their sig files alone, and of course > some people realize the stupidity (described above) of including fancy > formatting in messages which are going to be read and deleted within > minutes. I fear that Netscape may not care much about your ascii pics :-)) But kidding aside, ascii pics is a rather small application, and as any other small applications, it has to live with mainstream applications (Battling mainstream applications is useless, that's were the money is.) Living with mainstream applications is the very reason why I pointed out workarounds such as cautiously using only columns #3 to #73 for ascii pics. Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... ========================================================= [] ,, [] [] ( "> Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] ,(> )> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] ( ^^ Devilstein, who sired all the 'steins [] [] [] =========================================================
Matthew Thomas wrote: > In that regard I think we ASCII artists are starting to feel like > stonemasons, or cobblers, or whatever -- in this era, except on special > occasions, our craft is becoming obsolete. (Aargh! Heresy! Burn Matthew > at the stake! ...) As time goes on, all the reasons for ASCII art will > disappear -- referring to the FAQ here: (1) the universal text format > will be HTML; (2) the difference in file size between ASCII art and > pictures will be irrelevant, as sound and video files make even the > largest GIF trivial in size; and (3) we will be able to copy pictures > of any sort from one file to another just by dragging the mouse (or > whatever); so we will only be left with (4) -- `it's fun to do'. > No, I have another reason for using ascii art:" (5) It requires no extra equipement. To explain, I draw in the traditional way. While I'd love to draw something up the regular way, scan it, and make my point/serve my purpose that way, I don't have a scanner. It is very hard to scan things. So rather than wait months to be able to scan a few select pics, I can create them anytime with what I got to WP with. It's convient. :) -- _- BluePard da Loopy - Aura Lastwings ;' )\_ ___ "A foot falls, yet makes no sound...." | ```` \ .-. http://www.geocities.com/southbeach/palms/2115 (\| /_ ( _)\___//`-` _-'_.' "---' `---' "YOU'RE A DUCK!" -- Hope Opal
In article <356...@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso <pet...@sympatico.ca> writes: >In other words, the maker of the ascii pic provides display instructions in >the form of html tags to the viewing tool, in order to make sure that the >viewing tool displays the ascii pic correctly. This is to be contrasted to the >use of the built-in word processors of email and newsgroup software. As >viewing tools, these word processors work without the benefit of display >instructions (i.e. html tags.) These word processors will try to display the >ascii pic information with the general purpose "feature" set bestowed on them, >which can and will damage ascii pics as we saw in the above. In other words, to defeat "improvement " of news/mail text with wordprocessor features, we will probably have to embed our art in PRE.../PRE tags. Yes, I think this is probably right and quite perceptive of you. <pre> -- <__"-$ <__" <__" <__" :_ : : :_ ''''''''._____'-_....'"...-------''''''_ <__' '. $CIENTOLOGY: ..''--- :. ; _ . . . - ''' . . ' ': ': ': : .' the bridge to .~~>~~>:~~>: :.' total madness ~~> ~~> ' </pre>
Pete Casso wrote: > > This article is a rather long essay without cute pics ;-)) >... > This essay is to first describe the on-going technology evolution and > to subsequently suggest what we can do to protect our ascii pics. -------._ :mt-2::::`. __::::(/:;:\ ;;`.::`\/\;:\ \;\:::\;\;:| +----\:,-|---------------------------+ |:::..`._, REPORT CARD | |:.. Mid-year essay assignment | |. | | Author: PeteCasso | | Marker: Matthew Thomas | | ---------------------------------- | | STRUCTURE | | Generally good, but too much | | of `here's the nth section'. B- | | | | CONTENT | | Good. Some well-thought-out | | ideas. B+ | | | | GRAMMAR AND PUNCTUATION | | Too many run-on sentences. | | Occasional lapse into slang. C+ | | ---------------------------------- | | OVERALL GRADE: B | | ---------------------------------- | | ___| > Signed: Matthew Thomas \:/ | |/ +---------------------------------' Some comments ... >... > => The simple, plain vanilla, text editors built into email and > newsgroup software are evolving towards more sophisticated word > processors <= > > These email and newsgroup software with their built-in word processors > need to be sold to the buying public, Whether we need to buy them is another matter. :-) > and therefore need to have > features that makes life easier for the user community at large. I agree with that in general -- people will be more impressed by the appearance of bold, italic, font color *etc* buttons in their message composition windows, than they will be by being told the simple fact that these `features' actually waste time by causing the sender to concentrate on form rather than content. Consider how much longer e-mails will take to write when you've got the tempation of changing the font and layout all over the place ... As an aside, the same applies to word processors themselves: windows festooned with toolbars, animated help, and all that guff only distract people ... but I'm getting sidetracked; that's a matter for news:comp.human-factors. The point is, the problem is worse in e-mail, because so many of us need to get e-mails written and sent quickly. > One example of such a useful feature is the automatic elimination of a > blank space that a hasty user has inadvertently left at the beginning > of a line. How time consuming*, how user-friendly, how nice! *I think Pete meant `time-saving' here. But this example in particular, I do not understand. Is a `hasty user' *likely* to accidentally leave spaces at the beginning of a line? I don't think so. I would understand it if the program removed *all* duplicate spaces (including those at the beginning of a line), on the grounds of being more word-processor-ish; why word processors ever let you type two consecutive spaces is a mystery to me. But just to remove a couple from the beginning of a line seems bizarre. > Well, what is nice for general purpose applications may not be so nice > for a special purpose application such as ascii pics. >... > In time, other word processing features that are useful for general > purpose applications such as automatic conversion to curly/smart > quotes, automatic capitalization, automatic conversion of a top line > to a header, etc will make their way into email and newsgroup > software. That means, that in time, email and newsgroup software are > more and more likely to do damage to ascii pics. In that regard I think we ASCII artists are starting to feel like stonemasons, or cobblers, or whatever -- in this era, except on special occasions, our craft is becoming obsolete. (Aargh! Heresy! Burn Matthew at the stake! ...) As time goes on, all the reasons for ASCII art will disappear -- referring to the FAQ here: (1) the universal text format will be HTML; (2) the difference in file size between ASCII art and pictures will be irrelevant, as sound and video files make even the largest GIF trivial in size; and (3) we will be able to copy pictures of any sort from one file to another just by dragging the mouse (or whatever); so we will only be left with (4) -- `it's fun to do'. >... > What about the long term solutions? How can we protect our ascii pics > in this changing world in the long run? > > Well, we need to create a simple world again, where maker and viewer > of ascii pics use essentially the same tools. >... > However, there is an html standard that we can use to create such a > simple world again, one that works for ascii pics for the global > Internet. And, as we have seen from past discussions in this newsgroup > (or were these discussions more like wars ;-)) all we need is a > rather small subset of carefully chosen html tags to make sure that > both maker and viewer see the same ascii pic. I'm sorry, but this simply isn't true. HTML is not a WYSIWIS (what-you-see-is-what-I-see) medium, and never will be, due to the variety of software programs, OSs, and machines used to view it, and the variety of users who use those software programs, OSs, and machines. Despite <PRE>, <FONT> and all the rest of it, there is no getting away from the fact that HTML was designed as a *semantic* language, and the way particular HTML tags are rendered (or ignored) depends on all these things. (A few examples: the Nokia Communicator, the lynx and Opera Web browsers, and style sheets.) ASCII, on the other hand, very nearly is a WYSIWIS medium. The `very nearly' is due to the use of serif and sans-serif fonts and fonts of different aspect ratios, but these differences are trivial in most cases. > In other words, the maker of the ascii pic provides display > instructions in the form of html tags to the viewing tool, in order to > make sure that the viewing tool displays the ascii pic correctly. This > is to be contrasted to the use of the built-in word processors of > email and newsgroup software. The only HTML tags required for ASCII art are <PRE> and </PRE>; Netscape Composer has a `Formatted' choice in its style menu which inserts these (although that's hardly obvious, is it?) >... > on the one hand, entrenched technologies tend to > live "forever" ... typewrite[r]s are still being used. On the other > hand, Internet technologies including email and newsgroup technologies > are evolving at break-neck speeds ... Netscape 4.0.5 that I installed > a few days ago has _html_ as the default option for email and > newsgroups, _not) plain text. Yes :-( . I mentioned this when writing the FAQ last year. Overeagerness on Netscape's part, I think, as well as a reckless disregard for bandwidth. >... > The Dreaded Psychopath Pete Casso I think there is an alternative long-term strategy, and that is to petition Mozilla.org, and other e-mail program producers, to provide easier selection of whether a message is to be sent as plain text or in HTML -- for example, some sort of drop-down menu in the composition window. This wouldn't be just for us a.a-aers; many, many people have ASCII art of some description in their sig files alone, and of course some people realize the stupidity (described above) of including fancy formatting in messages which are going to be read and deleted within minutes. Well, that's my two pennies worth. -- __ /_/\ Matthew Thomas, who thought about drawing a picture of two _\_\/_ pennies, but in the end just couldn't be bothered :-P / /\/_/\ My real address is mpt26 @ student . canterbury . ac . nz \_\/\_\/ THE ASCII ART FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/faq.htm
Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote: > In other words, to defeat "improvement " of news/mail text with > wordprocessor features, we will probably have to embed our art > in PRE.../PRE tags. Yes, I think this is probably right > and quite perceptive of you. Well, the main perceptivity on my part has more to do with the early and clear (and first) recognition of how email and newsgroup software are evolving and in what ways these evolutionary changes are damaging ascii pics. Moreover, it is quite a bit of a tunnelvision on your part to take such a small snippet of the big picture and go right down to the nitty gritty html coding details. (Good try ;-)) Methodically progressing in a top-to-down fashion, I would first continue with pointing out that html would allow for structural elements such as: => pagewidth limitation no longer exist. For example, one can draw a pic that is 1000 columns wide and scroll sideways with the viewer. (Although there may be a practical preference for single page viewing and printing.) => utilization of half space techniques for drawing pics => prescribed fonts. Very recently LS said of one of his pics that it looks great in certain fonts and that it falls apart in others. And there are likely to be other structural elements (although I think that the above short list is pretty well complete in the sense that it includes pretty well all of the key elements.) And only after sorting them out can we methodically progress to, say, formulating html design recipes for ascii pics, and lastly progress to, say, formulating html coding templates for ascii pics. Oh well, it is perhaps simpler to just use gifs ;-)) ========================================================= [] ,, [] [] ( "> Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] ,(> )> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] ( ^^ Devilstein, who sired all the 'steins [] [] [] =========================================================
In article <356...@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: > Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream > applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. -- ___ ___ ___ ___ Doug Wilson ______/ /___/ /___/ /___/ /__________ dwi...@hotmail.com \ = : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : / http://www.cybcon.com/~dwilson ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "And my heart will go on..."
Doug Wilson wrote: > > In article <356...@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso > <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: > > > Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream > > applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... *************************************************************************** > Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII > art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. *************************************************************************** Yes!!!! _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ The full five smileythings! (._.) (._.) (._.) (._.) (._.) _)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ > -- > ___ ___ ___ ___ Doug Wilson > ______/ /___/ /___/ /___/ /__________ dwi...@hotmail.com > \ = : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : : / http://www.cybcon.com/~dwilson > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "And my heart will go on..." -- _ _ ------------\ ,---. /------------ ---------. `-./ "\.-' .--------- --------\ . /-------- ------`-.| .-'------ ---/ `/"\ \--- `//_-_\\' .----------(.'---',)----------. | mailto:ojo...@mindless.com | | http://ojoshiro.neroc.nl | | --oO(_)Oo-- | | Ojoshiro fuit hic | "-----------------------------"
Doug Wilson wrote: > Pete Casso wrote: > > > Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream > > applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... > > Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII > art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. > Then please tell me where the forum for discussion of ascii art is so that I can go there instead. I thought this was it. -- _ _ __ ___.--'_`. __ __ _ .'_`--.___ __ ( _`.'. - 'o` ) \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ ( 'o` - .`.'_ ) _\.'_' _.-' \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | `-._ `_`./_ ( \`. ) //\` \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| '/\\ ( .'/ ) \_`-'`---'\\__, ,__//`---'`-'_/ \` `-\ uggc://jjj.yhqq.yhgu.fr/hfref/ix/ /-' '/ ` _____________________ r93...@fz.yhgu.fr ____________________ ' LIKE MY SIG? GO HERE: http://www.surfplaza.com/figlet/
Doug Wilson wrote: > Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII > art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. Where do you think do the various FAQs come from, if not from discussion here on aaa? And the FAQs are still evolving, through discussion here on aaa. ========================================================= [] ,, [] [] ( "> Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] ,(> )> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] ( ^^ Devilstein, who sired all the 'steins [] [] [] =========================================================
Martin Atkins wrote: > .----- Veronica Karlsson posted: > |Doug Wilson wrote: > |> Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII > |> art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. > | > |Then please tell me where the forum for discussion of ascii art is so > |that I can go there instead. I thought this was it. > > So did I... it`s not alt.ascii-art.pictures.only ... or alt.ascii-art.discussion > for that matter. > There _is_ a group called alt.binaries.pictures.ascii though... maybe _that_ is the "discussion about ascii art" group...? I mean, it can't be the "for posting of ascii pictures only" group (as the name suggests) if that is this group... -- _ _ __ ___.--'_`. __ __ _ .'_`--.___ __ ( _`.'. - 'o` ) \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ ( 'o` - .`.'_ ) _\.'_' _.-' \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | `-._ `_`./_ ( \`. ) //\` \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| '/\\ ( .'/ ) \_`-'`---'\\__, ,__//`---'`-'_/ \` `-\ uggc://jjj.yhqq.yhgu.fr/hfref/ix/ /-' '/ ` _____________________ r93...@fz.yhgu.fr ____________________ ' LIKE MY SIG? GO HERE: http://www.surfplaza.com/figlet/
> Yep...but I think "rec.arts.ascii" welcomes discussion according to it's > Charter although the current moderator, Don Bertino, recently > indicated that he was not keen on HTML: This argument is academic only, for all practical purposes, raa is dead. ======================================================== [] [] [] /( Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] (\ ( "> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] `(> )> Roosterstein, tenor of the backyard [] [] ^^ [] ========================================================
Ojoshiro <ojoshiro@_NOSPAM_mindless.com> wrote: >Doug Wilson wrote: >> >> In article <356...@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso >> <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> >> > Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream >> > applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... >*************************************************************************** >> Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII >> art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. >*************************************************************************** >Yes!!!! > _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ _Y_ The full five smileythings! >(._.) (._.) (._.) (._.) (._.) >_)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ _)-(_ Ooooh are those "Smiley Awards"...like the "Stein Awards" ? Bye,
Doug Wilson <dwi...@hotmail.com> wrote: >In article <356...@sympatico.ca>, Pete Casso ><pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream >> applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... >Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII >art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. Yep...but I think "rec.arts.ascii" welcomes discussion according to it's Charter although the current moderator, Don Bertino, recently indicated that he was not keen on HTML: ==================================================================== Charter and Rationale for rec.arts.ascii ( moderated newsgroup ). ==================================================================== CHARTER The new group rec.arts.ascii will be the appropriate group for postings to include, but not be limited to, the following: o All forms of ASCII art including, but not limited to: - Standard ASCII art. - Animations. - ANSI color graphics. o Discussion about pieces of art. o Requests for specific pieces of art, and their fulfillment. o Questions and answers covering: - Creating and viewing ASCII art. - Locating FTP sites for ASCII art and related files. o Discussion about artists in the field. RATIONALE The group rec.arts.ascii would serve a useful purpose to the Net for the following reasons: o Standard ASCII art is the only type of graphics easily transmitted and instantly viewable on any terminal or communications software. If you can view text from the Net, you can view ASCII art (as it is made up of standard text characters). No conversion or special software required to view. o ASCII art is also the most compact form of graphics. An ASCII picture can easily be less than 1 K. In cases where resolution is not an issue, an ASCII graphic can take the place of a bitmap, eps, or gif of 20, 50, 100 or more K! o The existing groups alt.ascii-art and alt.binaries.pictures.ascii have served well as proving grounds and attest to the usefulness and popularity of this form of graphics and art. It is time for rec.arts.ascii to better serve Net users. ASCII art can be used to for many things, among them are: o Education (a periodic table or molecular model for example). o Cross cultural communication (pictures are international). o BBS & server login screens, etc. o Entertainment (like a birthday 'card', holiday greetings, invitations, congradulatory messages, children's picture stories, etc). o Visual aid (such as a wiring diagram, floor plan, illustrated instructions, or flow chart) to eliminate a long involved explanation with a graphic. The main purpose of the moderator is to handle the constant flow of frequently asked questions (despite the FAQ posted weekly). This need would be even greater with the estimated increase in traffic for rec.arts.ascii over the existing alt groups. The moderator would send a FAQ to posters of frequently asked questions, and also redirect the posters of inappropriate items to the proper groups. ==================================================================== Around these parts people always seem to end up by asking the same question... where are the draaaaaawings... \ dunno, just can't see any... ____ ____ / <---- = =\\\ o o\\\ /< c /< c ___ _______/__D_/'_ /__,_/\___ /(- /(\_\________ \ '\_/ \ \ ) \ )_ \o \ | o \ /|\ /|\ |' | | |' | | | _\ | | | \ //\____| | //\_| | /-,---/ |/-,--|__| / / _) / / /( / / / / / \ )_ ( ( < ( ( < \\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | \ \ | \_\____\ \_\____\ ___\_\_\ ___\_\_\ ((((,,,,o) ((((,,,,o) . .. b'ger Bye,
Colin Douthwaite wrote: > Ooooh are those "Smiley Awards"...like the "Stein Awards" ? > > Bye, Something like that... stars are so boring...and huge... -- _ _ ------------\ ,---. /------------ ---------. `-./ "\.-' .--------- --------\ . /-------- ------`-.| .-'------ ---/ `/"\ \--- `//_-_\\' .----------(.'---',)----------. | mailto:ojo...@mindless.com | | http://ojoshiro.neroc.nl | | --oO(_)Oo-- | | Ojoshiro fuit hic | "-----------------------------"
Martin Atkins <zne...@ovtsbbg.pbz> wrote: >.----- On Tue, 26 May 1998 20:09:45 +0200, Veronica Karlsson posted: >|Doug Wilson wrote: >|> Pete Casso wrote: >|> >|> > Well, ascii pics living in an increasingly hostile world of mainstream >|> > applications is the very reason why I started this discussion thread ... >|> >|> Pete, last time I checked this wasn't the forum for discussion of ASCII >|> art. It was the forum for posting ASCII art. >|> >| >|Then please tell me where the forum for discussion of ascii art is so >|that I can go there instead. I thought this was it. >'------------------------- >So did I... it`s not alt.ascii-art.pictures.only ... or alt.ascii-art.discussion >for that matter. >Hmm... Read the FAQ: >3. What goes on in the ASCII art discussion groups? >---------------------------------------------------- > In the ASCII art discussion groups people discuss ASCII art, post > ASCII pictures, post improved versions or variations of pictures > other people have drawn, and generally have fun. >Notice: the ASCII art *discussion* groups >In the ASCII art discussion groups people *discuss* ASCII art, post > ASCII pic.... >I think that this sorta means that it is for both. Yes, I think you have a very good point there. Matthew Thomas considerably expanded that section of the FAQ compared with the Scarecrow original which allowed for: o Discussion about pieces of art. o Questions and answers covering: - Creating and viewing ASCII art. - Locating FTP sites for ASCII art and related files. Matthew Thomas however went much further than Allison and described the newsgroups as " the ASCII art discussion groups ". Basically ALL newsgroups are regarded as discussion groups unless otherwise designated in their titles. ==== The Bob Allison original FAQ version ============================ 25 What should I know about posting ASCII Art? You can post any of the following types of ASCII art to rec.arts.ascii or alt.ascii-art or alt.binaries.pictures.ascii groups: o All forms of ASCII art including: - Standard ASCII art (line pics, 3-D, oversize printer art, GIFs, etc). - Non-standard ASCII art (animations, color pics, color animations). o Discussion about pieces of art. o Requests for specific pieces of art, and their fulfillment. o Questions and answers covering: - Creating and viewing ASCII art. - Locating FTP sites for ASCII art and related files. o Dicussion about artists in the field. Animations can also be posted to alt.ascii-art.animation. 3-D art can also be posted to alt.3d. ==== The Matthew Thomas new FAQ version ============================== 3. What goes on in the ASCII art discussion groups? ---------------------------------------------------- In the ASCII art discussion groups people discuss ASCII art, post ASCII pictures, post improved versions or variations of pictures other people have drawn, and generally have fun. Types of messages which we usually enjoy seeing include: * look, here's an ASCII picture I drew ... * REQ: xyz (ie, has anyone got any ASCII pictures of xyz?) * suggestions on, or improvements of, other people's ASCII pictures * hey-guys-love-your-work-type messages! Types of messages which we usually *don't* enjoy seeing include: * messages with the subject `ASCII art' (try to be a bit more informative, please) * make money fast!!! ... (yawn, yawn, snore) * heres the adress of my web site, come see it pleez (why should we?) * don't read this, this is a test (that's what news:alt.test, news:misc.test, and many other `test' newsgroups are for). There are three ASCII art discussion groups. news:alt.ascii-art is the main group, where most of the discussion takes place. news:rec.arts.ascii is identical in purpose to news:alt.ascii-art, but it is a moderated group -- all messages pass through an intermediary (the moderator) who checks them for appropriateness before sending them to the group itself. The advantage of this is that there isn't any unwanted advertising in the group; however, the frequency of postings to news:rec.arts.ascii is very low at the time of writing (it was resurrected in November 1997 after the previous moderator, Bob Allison (`Scarecrow') retired in December 1996). If your news server isn't set up to allow direct posting to news:rec.arts.ascii, e-mail your message to the moderator, Don Bertino <ber...@netcom.com>. news:alt.ascii-art.animation is specifically for discussion and postings of animated ASCII art [see Question 12]. ====================================================================== So...after all that...I suppose the bottom line is that since alt.ascii-art is a totally free and unmoderated newsgroup, with a FAQ but no official Charter, then anyone can post anything they like here but run the risk of anyone else saying that they do not like some of the postings and flamewars will sometimes erupt. If from time to time lengthy wordy discussions fill up a lot of the daily postings then readers will scream...and ask... where have all the draaaaaawings gone... \ dunno, just can't see any... ____ ____ / <---- = =\\\ o o\\\ /< c /< c ___ _______/__D_/'_ /__,_/\___ /(- /(\_\________ \ '\_/ \ \ ) \ )_ \o \ | o \ /|\ /|\ |' | | |' | | | _\ | | | \ //\____| | //\_| | /-,---/ |/-,--|__| / / _) / / /( / / / / / \ )_ ( ( < ( ( < \\ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ \ | \ \ | \_\____\ \_\____\ ___\_\_\ ___\_\_\ ((((,,,,o) ((((,,,,o) . .. b'ger Bye,
Pete Casso <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: >> Yep...but I think "rec.arts.ascii" welcomes discussion according to it's >> Charter although the current moderator, Don Bertino, recently >> indicated that he was not keen on HTML: >This argument is academic only, for all practical purposes, raa is dead. Now you'll have upset Don Bertino, the raa moderator. >======================================================== >[] [] >[] /( Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] >[] (\ ( "> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] >[] `(> )> Roosterstein, tenor of the backyard [] >[] ^^ [] >======================================================== Maybe Roosterstein should apply for membership of his local Mool Voice Choir...they are always looking for tenors. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Chorus gentlemen, please ! (___) (___) (___) (___)(___) (___) (___) (___) (___)(___) (o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___)(o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / (___) O (___) O(___) (___)(__O) (___) O (___) O(___) (___)(__O) (o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___)(o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / (___) O (___) O(___) (___)(__O) (___) O (___) O(___) (___)(__O) (o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___)(o o(___)o o) (___) o) (o o)((___) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) \ /(o o)\ / (o o) /(___)/ (o o) O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / O \ / O \ / O (o o) \ / O O \ / O O O \ / O O O (__) ,'-00 Mool Voice Choir / /\_| / in Concert / | _/__________________ | \===^__| __| _|___ /\ |___________________| |=====| | I I *I I| | I I I I^ ^ I I -cfbd- -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Bye,
Matthew Thomas wrote: > > Colin Douthwaite wrote: > >... > > > > > > 3. What goes on in the ASCII art discussion groups? > > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > > > In the ASCII art discussion groups people discuss ASCII art, > > > post ASCII pictures, post improved versions or variations of > > > pictures other people have drawn, and generally have fun. > > > > > Notice: the ASCII art *discussion* groups > > > > > > In the ASCII art discussion groups people *discuss* ASCII art, post > > > ASCII pic.... > > > > > >I think that this sorta means that it is for both. > > > > Yes, I think you have a very good point there. > > > > Matthew Thomas considerably expanded that section of the FAQ > > compared with the Scarecrow original which allowed for: > > > > o Discussion about pieces of art. > > o Questions and answers covering: > > - Creating and viewing ASCII art. > > - Locating FTP sites for ASCII art and related files. > > > > Matthew Thomas however went much further than Allison and described > > the newsgroups as " the ASCII art discussion groups ". > > > > Basically ALL newsgroups are regarded as discussion groups unless > > otherwise designated in their titles. > > Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, what mess have I got myself into this time? > :-D > > When I wrote this particular section of the FAQ, I based it not on what > Bob Allison had written, but on what had actually been going on (and had > seemed to be accepted) in alt.ascii-art for some time. > > I changed all references to `newsgroups' to `discussion groups' in > version 2 of the FAQ for two reasons: > 1. that is what they are called by modern software such as Netscape > Collabra (not to mention DejaNews) > 2. it makes more sense (well, how many groups actually discuss > `news'?). > > And really, there's not enough traffic on alt.ascii-art to have separate > alt.ascii-art.d[iscussion] and alt.ascii-art.pictures groups. (There's > not really enough traffic to have separate alt.ascii-art, > alt.ascii-art.animation, and rec.arts.ascii groups either, but that's > another story ...) Not that my opinion means anything, but I feel, that alt.ascii-art.pictures should be for pics only and that this news/discussion group(alt.ascii-art) is for anything that has to do with ascii-art. Art, seems to me, to curtail all of it. So it SHOULD show you how to draw, view, editors...and so forth. Now I realize that this is the group, out of all the ones mentioned, is used the most. So those that don't want to read that stuff just HAVE to take the time to weed through what they don't want and promote the other groups. Everytime they make an arguement against these extra discussions, it is just more skipping throught that the rest of us have to do. *please to all, keep this in mind* So if you plan to do a vote Matthew, I vote to leave it open to discuss anything and everything that has to do with ascii-art. -> ,---------------------. -> ,d888888b. | I can't see any | -> d8888888888b | pictures either ... | -> | _,_ _._ | `.,-------------------' -> _,-' _< ,>_ `-. / -> _,-' . ,`-. `. -> ' \ `-' / `. \ -> \ `-.__,-' -' /mt-2 -> I liked this one. LOL Peace, Donovan (`/\ `=\/\ __...--~~~~~-._ _.-~~~~~--...__ `=\/\ Poems by \ / ICQ# 812836 \\ Original Poetry, Ascii-Art & `=\/ Donovan V bak...@gwtc.net \\ Animations, Dragons, Baby //_\___--~~~~~~-._ | _.-~~~~~~--...__\\ Pictures, Kool-Aid Info., // ) (..----~~~~._\ | /_.~~~~----.....__\\ Secret Link Game, DA QUIZ! ===( INK )==========\\|//==================== ejm\___/ dwb`---` http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/6558/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ (".___.") EVANS PLUNGE BEANIE BABIES PRICE LIST _ { + } _ ()__|>o<|__() http://www.gwtc.net/~bakd/bb.html ( . ) (_) (_) New & Retired Beanies available. Prices start at $5.95!
> Maybe Roosterstein should apply for membership of his local Mool Voice > Choir...they are always looking for tenors. FYI, Roosterstein is now Honorary Chairman of Moo Chorus International. Very recently, Roosterstein retired as Chairman of the National Chapter of Moo Chorus of the Land of the 'steins. At the outgoing eulogy, Frogstein, King of the backyard pond, credited Roosterstein with salvaging the singing careers of innumerous young calves when their beautiful voices change at the onset of puberty. ======================================================== [] [] [] /( Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] (\ ( "> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] `(> )> Roosterstein, tenor of the backyard [] [] ^^ [] ========================================================
Colin Douthwaite wrote: >... > > > > 3. What goes on in the ASCII art discussion groups? > > ---------------------------------------------------- > > > > In the ASCII art discussion groups people discuss ASCII art, > > post ASCII pictures, post improved versions or variations of > > pictures other people have drawn, and generally have fun. > > > Notice: the ASCII art *discussion* groups > > > > In the ASCII art discussion groups people *discuss* ASCII art, post > > ASCII pic.... > > > >I think that this sorta means that it is for both. > > Yes, I think you have a very good point there. > > Matthew Thomas considerably expanded that section of the FAQ > compared with the Scarecrow original which allowed for: > > o Discussion about pieces of art. > o Questions and answers covering: > - Creating and viewing ASCII art. > - Locating FTP sites for ASCII art and related files. > > Matthew Thomas however went much further than Allison and described > the newsgroups as " the ASCII art discussion groups ". > > Basically ALL newsgroups are regarded as discussion groups unless > otherwise designated in their titles. Oh dear, oh dear, oh dear, what mess have I got myself into this time? :-D When I wrote this particular section of the FAQ, I based it not on what Bob Allison had written, but on what had actually been going on (and had seemed to be accepted) in alt.ascii-art for some time. I changed all references to `newsgroups' to `discussion groups' in version 2 of the FAQ for two reasons: 1. that is what they are called by modern software such as Netscape Collabra (not to mention DejaNews) 2. it makes more sense (well, how many groups actually discuss `news'?). And really, there's not enough traffic on alt.ascii-art to have separate alt.ascii-art.d[iscussion] and alt.ascii-art.pictures groups. (There's not really enough traffic to have separate alt.ascii-art, alt.ascii-art.animation, and rec.arts.ascii groups either, but that's another story ...) ,---------------------. ,d888888b. | I can't see any | d8888888888b | pictures either ... | | _,_ _._ | `.,-------------------' _,-' _< ,>_ `-. / _,-' . ,`-. `. ' \ `-' / `. \ \ `-.__,-' -' /mt-2 -- __ /_/\ Matthew Thomas, Master of the Mail _\_\/_ My real address is mpt26 @ student . canterbury . ac . nz /_/\/_/\ \_\/\_\/ THE ASCII ART FAQ: http://www.geocities.com/SoHo/7373/faq.htm
Matthew Thomas <mpt...@spamfree.land> wrote: > And really, there's not enough traffic on alt.ascii-art to have separate > alt.ascii-art.d[iscussion] and alt.ascii-art.pictures groups. (There's > not really enough traffic to have separate alt.ascii-art, > alt.ascii-art.animation, and rec.arts.ascii groups either, but that's > another story ...) My intention in spinning off rec.arts.ascii was that the moderator would repost only the best new art in a.a-a, so that people could keep current on the art without having to spend hours checking out everything. But this wasn't meant to exclude thoughtful discussions... and my proposal was abandoned by the time the charter was posted, anyway. But I'd still like to see it happen. -- I EDIT THE NET: <URL:http://www.mcs.net/~jorn/html/weblogs/weblog.html> "In human stupidity, when it is not malicious, there is something very touching, even beautiful... There always is." --Leo Tolstoy
Pete Casso <pet...@sympatico.ca> wrote: >Very recently, Roosterstein retired as Chairman of the National Chapter of Moo >Chorus of the Land of the 'steins. The New Chairman... (___) (o o) \ / O \ // \ // \ \ ^^ \ .\ /@// \ // * -----^^--- \ ____ / |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| |||||| __||||||||__ | .,....,. | | ...,.,.. | ------------ Bye,
Unfortunately, the female population of the Land of the 'steins objected to the proposed statue which exposes the male genitals of the new chairman. > > (___) > (o o) > \ / > O \ > // \ > // \ \ > ^^ \ .\ > offensive item ==> /@// \ > // * > -----^^--- > \ ____ / > |||||| > |||||| > |||||| > |||||| > |||||| > |||||| > __||||||||__ > | .,....,. | > | ...,.,.. | > ------------ > Instead, King Frogstein approved the following stylish bust. (___) (o o) __\ /__ \ O / ===== ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| ||||| __|||||||__ | Chairman | | Moo | ------------ ======================================================== [] . + . [] [] \^|^/ Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! [] [] .oo http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ [] [] ( -) Frogstein, King of the backyard pond [] [] " " [] ========================================================
Another special interest group has voiced its support for MAEPIPP (Mothers
Against Exposed Penises In Public Places.) The FAETIPP (Fathers Against
Exposed Teats In Public Places) has endorsed MAEPIPP's proposal for preserving
pristine chastity for both genders in the Land of the 'steins.
Right: (___)
====== (o o)
\ /
O \
// \
// \ \
^^ oo. .\
MAEPIPP and FAETIPP approved ==> (- ) \
"// *
-----^^---
========================================================
[] []
[] /( Visit the Gallery of the 'steins! []
[] (\ ( "> http://www3.sympatico.ca/petecasso/ []
[] `(> )> Roosterstein, tenor of the backyard []
[] ^^ []
========================================================
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