DIS: rec vs alt (Please Read)

I know this isn't art, but I wanted to start a proper discussion about the
creation of rec.arts.ascii (r.a.a) and the differences between it and 
alt.ascii-art (a.a-a).

Scarecrow, I hope I'm not stealing your thunder by making these suggestions,
I just wanted to see everyone's views on the subject and offer my opinions.


We've seen a fairly strong campaign against r.a.a mounted by Colin
Douthwaite and I'd like to counter a few of the things he's been discussing.


The most obvious difference between r.a.a and a.a-a is in propagation.
It's easy to think that just because you can read a.a-a, everyone else
can. This is not true, many newsreaders only receive the official groups
(rec, comp, sci etc.). A.a-a is currently read by only 44% of the available
groups, partly because its 'alt' tag gets it lumped together with all the
alt.sex, alt.binaries.pictures.erotica and alt.this.is.just.another.stupid.
group.started.by.people.with.nothing.better.to.do.with.their.lives groups.

Creating r.a.a will greatly increase both the number of viewers and
contributors. It might also add a little 'respectability' to the art of
drawing pictures using the standard Ascii alphabet. Communicating across
the InterNet using Ascii is going to continue for a good few years yet, so
we might as well get as many artists as possible involved.


The other change from a.a-a to r.a.a will be the introduction of Scarecrow
as a moderator. As moderator he will be able to cut out any letters that
he wants to and prevent us from seeing them.

The standard paranoid reaction is 'Oh no, why bother posting to a moderated
group, my letter will just get removed'. Really? Naaaaaa. Scarecrow has
consistently shown his interest in ascii art, both by his number of posts
(I hope your employer isn't reading this!) and by the way he helps out with
the requests that we regularly see.

This is how I see the moderator dealing with the different types of posts
that we get in a.a-a (Apologies for writing your contract Scarecrow!):


1) New Ascii art pictures
   - Posted as normal.

2) Reposts of existing pictures we've all seen before (Meriday, etc.)
   - Probably cut most of the time, although it might be nice to let them 
     be reposted every month or so for the new viewers.

3) Requests for reposts of existing pictures
   - Cut and replied to by the moderator.

4) Requests for specific pictures that exist (Star Trek, happy birthday,
   hearts and roses, etc.)
   - Cut and replied to by the moderator, although again, some could be let
     through to see if anyone wants to draw a new picture.

5) Requests for new pictures that don't exist
   - Posted as normal

6) Discussions, comments, praise, etc. (With or without Ascii pictures in
   them, I'd hate readers to think that they had to include an 'ObAscii')
   - Posted as normal

7) Off-topic letters (cross-posts, Make Money Fast, etc.)
   - Cut


I don't know whether this is what Scarecrow has in mind, but I imagine its
along the same lines.

The important point to remember is that voting YES for r.a.a will allow
many more people to see and contribute to the growing collections of ascii
artwork. At the same time, we won't have to wade through the large numbers
of requests and reposts that we get right now.


If you really believe that the moderation of r.a.a would stop you
subscribing to it, vote YES anyway so that everyone who wants the moderated
group can have it, and then carry on reading a.a-a, it won't be deleted when
r.a.a gets created.

This is known as a 'win-win' situation and you know it makes sense!


Comments anyone?


                                                          DR J
 _____________________________________________________________________

                .....            .....
             ,,$$$$$$$$$,      ,$$$$$$$$$$,
            ;$'      '$$$$:   ;$'      '$$$$:
            $:         $$$$:  $:         $$$$:         It's much
             $       o_)$$$:   $      o_) $$$:         easier when
             ;$,    _/\ &&:'   ;$,   _/\  &&:'         you can surf
               '     /( &&&      '    /(  &&&          in three
                   \_&&&&'         \_&&&&'             dimensions!
                  &&&&.           &&&&.
            &&&&&&&:       &&&&&&&&:
 _____________________________________________________________________

I don't subcribe to moderated newsgroups.
It ruins the idea behind the net, and I do not want to part
of that development ;)

LS.

Lennert Stock:
>I don't subcribe to moderated newsgroups.
>It ruins the idea behind the net, and I do not want to part
>of that development ;)

Which idea was that?  Usenet is dozens, maybe even thousands, of
different ideas. :)

Yes, a moderated group may have quite a different character than this
unmoderated group.  Or maybe not.  There are several long-standing
moderated groups that are pretty loose.  It depends on the moderator.

Why not give the moderated group a chance to develop first.  If you're
unsatisfied with the result, then you can lobby to unmoderate the
group.  I suspect Scarecrow would be happy to comply with a vote to
unmoderate the group.  Less work for him to do.

(Side note.  I hope the moderation would mainly reduce duplicates.  I
don't think I really want to see the number of requests reduced, or
off-topic postings completely eliminated, in a group like this.  Stuff
like that can spark off new pictures.)
--

>I know this isn't art, but I wanted to start a proper discussion about the
>creation of rec.arts.ascii (r.a.a) and the differences between it and 
>alt.ascii-art (a.a-a).
    I hate to post this having only read this group for about a month, 
but surely this issue was discussed thoughly both here and in rec.config 
before the call for votes?

>The most obvious difference between r.a.a and a.a-a is in propagation.
[snip]
> 
>The other change from a.a-a to r.a.a will be the introduction of Scarecrow
>as a moderator. As moderator he will be able to cut out any letters that
>he wants to and prevent us from seeing them.
    This also means the speed with which letters are posted will be limited
by the moderator's speed, discussions will become painfully slow.
[snip]
>
>If you really believe that the moderation of r.a.a would stop you
>subscribing to it, vote YES anyway so that everyone who wants the moderated
>group can have it, and then carry on reading a.a-a, it won't be deleted when
>r.a.a gets created.
>
>This is known as a 'win-win' situation and you know it makes sense!
    I personally feel that the benefits are many and the losses few, but 
it's incorrect to say that rec.arts.ascii will be a win-win situation.
it's a big win for rec.arts.ascii, but alt.ascii-art will suffer, consider;
The quality of alt.ascii-art will drop by some amount as talent leaves
to post in rec.arts.ascii (moderated.)  
The moderator's time will be absorbed more and more as he deals with repost 
requests, and requests for specific pictures that exist, he will post 
less and less to alt.ascii-art.
Sites which do not currently carry alt.ascii-art are less likely to carry 
it once rec.arts.ascii comes online, resulting in smaller distribution for 
alt.ascii-art. 
Every other rec group loses a very tiny bit when a new rec group is created.  

    Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor of rec.arts.ascii (I voted YES!)
I'd much rather see an index of what's available, and an automated art 
request facility, but rec.arts.ascii (moderated) is at least as step in
the right direction.
- o ----------------------------------------------------------------- 
 _M_
  O   He has the sureness of self which comes only from inexperience.
 <|>
 / \   Scott Nelson, Patron Saint of Hats (sne...@engr.sgi.com)

Scott Nelson:
>it's a big win for rec.arts.ascii, but alt.ascii-art will suffer, consider;
>The quality of alt.ascii-art will drop by some amount as talent leaves
>to post in rec.arts.ascii (moderated.)  

Easy to fix.  Just make sure that everything posted to rec.arts.ascii
is also crossposted to alt.ascii-art.
--

Dwayne Jarvis (dlj...@giaeb.cc.monash.edu.au) wrote:

> I voted YES anyway.

> Row.

Don't worry Row - you still have until 30 May to change your vote to 
NO if you really would like to :-)  Think about it !

Bye,

DR J (me9...@brunel.ac.uk) wrote:


              [...message full of rose-coloured 
                  dreams and warm fuzzies deleted...]


> This is known as a 'win-win' situation and you know it makes sense!

> Comments anyone?

Yes... it makes nonsense  ( or in the Old English idiom - it's a 
load of old codswallop ! )  

Just my NZ$0.02 worth

:-)

Bye,

Felix Lee (fle...@cse.psu.edu) wrote:

> (Side note.  I hope the moderation would mainly reduce duplicates.  
> I don't think I really want to see the number of requests reduced, 
> or off-topic postings completely eliminated, in a group like this.  
> Stuff like that can spark off new pictures.) 

Aaah, at last I think I detect a glimmer of understanding in the 
proponent sector for this moderated group.  

Exactly ! - requests, and even requests for reposts, are in their 
own way valuable to the life of ascii-art.  

Requests _do_ stimulate posting of new pictures. Frequently when I 
respond to a request my so-called "repost" will carry new pictures I 
have added since the subject matter was last posted - those new 
pictures probably have not yet reached any archive files at FTP sites.  

If requests are selectively excluded how do any of us, except the 
Moderators, know what currently interests people ?  

Also how can any moderator really know what to include and exclude ?

And what do those folks think who have had their posting declined or 
diverted or are fobbed off with a FAQ or a Pointer to an Archive 
Site ?  How would _you_ react to an exclusion of one of your 
postings ?  

Bye,

>
>> I voted YES anyway.
>> Row.
>
>Don't worry Row - you still have until 30 May to change your vote to 
>NO if you really would like to :-)  Think about it !

The same applies to you Colin: you have until 30 May to change your vote to 
YES.  I doubt very much that your intimidating tactics will make a 
difference.  On the other hand, the more you use them the more you tarnish 
your own reputation.  Think about it !

-- 
Normand Veilleux                As a "long term" contributing artist to
nve...@emr1.emr.ca            alt.ascii-art, I hereby declare that
----------------------------    rec.arts.ascii (MODERATED) has my support.

Normand Veilleux (Nve...@emr1.emr.ca) wrote:
: >
: >> I voted YES anyway.
: >> Row.
: >
: >Don't worry Row - you still have until 30 May to change your vote to 
: >NO if you really would like to :-)  Think about it !

: The same applies to you Colin: you have until 30 May to change your vote to 
: YES.  I doubt very much that your intimidating tactics will make a 
: difference.  On the other hand, the more you use them the more you tarnish 
: your own reputation.  Think about it !

: -- 
: Normand Veilleux                As a "long term" contributing artist to
: nve...@emr1.emr.ca            alt.ascii-art, I hereby declare that
: ----------------------------    rec.arts.ascii (MODERATED) has my support.


Normand, you amaze me !  Do I _have_ a reputation _to_ tarnish ?  Tell 
me about it I'm all ears :-)

Intimidation ?  Look at your own signature. 

And have you not seen all those postings from proponents _telling_ 
and _urging_ people to vote YES or else not to vote NO ?  
And other messages asking folks to change their vote to YES ?

Also what about all those messages from proponents stating they 
have voted YES and exhorting other people to do the same ?  

As I have said elsewhere it is a wonder that a NO vote is even being 
allowed on this issue.

I always thought that people did not declare how they voted till an 
election was over, although I understand in votes for newsgroups the 
results of the voting are published in detail, naming names.  

How about letting folks vote the way they wish to ?

From recent postings it appears that personal attacks are becoming 
fashionable. Perhaps it is time to put on Flame Suits ?  


OK  Here we go  :-)


     _______ 
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 /--|  |(  o|
|   >   \___|
|  /---------+
| |    \ =========______/|
|  \   \\=========------\|
|   \   \----+--\-)))
|   |\______|_)))/   
 \__==========       
    |   |-\   \
    |   |  \   \            100% Asbestos Flame Suit  ON
    |   |   \   \
    |   |   /   /        fully enclosed and breathing deeply.
    |   |  /   /
    |   |_<   /
____<_____\\__\__ ___



Bye,

>From: Col...@equinox.gen.nz (Colin Douthwaite)


>Normand, you amaze me !

Would you be trying to use flattery now ?  :-)

>Do I _have_ a reputation _to_ tarnish ?

Sure you do.  Just like any other respectable human being.

>Tell me about it I'm all ears :-)
                  ^^^^^^^^^^^^
That could explain why you can't "see" the correct meaning of other
people's posts.  :-)


>Intimidation ?  Look at your own signature. 

Let's see now.  Are you trying to say that my sig is intimidating you ?
Did the rules on sigs change lately ?  I did not know it was forbidden to
include personal opinions in there.  My sig is simply stating my own
position towards r.a.a which is very obvious from the contents of posts
that I have submitted during both the RFD and the CFV period anyway!
So, what's the problem ?

>And have you not seen all those postings from proponents _telling_ 
>and _urging_ people to vote YES or else not to vote NO ?  
>And other messages asking folks to change their vote to YES ?

Yes I have seen them.  If it's not allowed, file a complaint.  If it's
allowed, then you have no reason to complain.


>Also what about all those messages from proponents stating they 
>have voted YES and exhorting other people to do the same ?  

Again, if this type of "campaigning" is not allowed, file a complaint.  If
it's allowed, then stop loosing sleep over it.  I saw that you posted your
message around midnight.  Relax Colin, it's just an ASCII art group!
I'm going to be happy no matter what the outcome is.  Although I must
admit I'll be happier in one than in the other.


>As I have said elsewhere it is a wonder that a NO vote is even being 
>allowed on this issue.

As I have said elsewhere too, it is impossible to please everyone.  Even
if you had voted YES there would still have been people that would have
voted NO.


>I always thought that people did not declare how they voted till an 
>election was over, although I understand in votes for newsgroups the 
>results of the voting are published in detail, naming names.  

Really !!  What do you suppose it means when, during an election
campaign, someone displays in their yard a sign of one of the parties ?
They intend to vote _against_ the party ?!  They intend to _abstain_ from
voting ?!  Please, take off your asbestos suit; the lack of oxygen is
starting to affect your brain.  :-)

I think you are right about the results for newgroups.  There will be a 
list available showing all the voters and their choice.


>How about letting folks vote the way they wish to ?

I don't understand.  Who is preventing them ?


From recent postings it appears that personal attacks are becoming 
>fashionable. Perhaps it is time to put on Flame Suits ?  

Sounds like you are getting ready for a flame war.  Could this eventually
lead to a law suit.  :-)

BTW, I haven't seen in your post any arguments trying to show why r.a.a
is bad or any suggestions trying to improve it.  All I have seen are
complaints about how people are doing things...  I am not against you, I
simply deplore your tactics.


On a different note, you have done me a great favour without knowing it.
I'm serious.  A few of your posts had been cross-posted to COMP.GRAPHICS.  
So, my replies also went there.  I just received a message today from 
someone who came across my name in that group.  It's been ten years since I 
last heard of this guy.  We used to compete for the highest marks in high 
school and just for kicks we had memorized over a hundred digits of PI.  
Actually, I still recall it to 70 digits.  Let's see:

3. 14159 26535 89793
   23846 26433 83279
   50288 41971 69399
   37510 58209 74944
   59203 78164

Anyway, sorry for the chitchat folks.  I've got ten years of news on which 
to catch up.  So I'm out of here.
Thanks again Colin.  Hmm, looks like I might owe you one...

-- 
Normand Veilleux                As a "long term" contributing artist to
nve...@emr1.emr.ca            alt.ascii-art, I hereby declare that
----------------------------    rec.arts.ascii (MODERATED) has my support.

Normand Veilleux (Nve...@emr1.emr.ca) wrote:


> Please, take off your asbestos suit; the lack of oxygen is 
> starting to affect your brain.  :-) 

I decided to take your advice and have changed into Asbestos 
Underwear. 

In the interests of decency I am not including a picture.


> On a different note, you have done me a great favour without 
> knowing it.  I'm serious.  A few of your posts had been cross-
> posted to COMP.GRAPHICS.....


As the saying goes ( I think ):  

"It's an ill wind that blows no-one any good"  -- unknown.


And... as they say in the U.S. of A. - " You're welcome ! "


Or... as they say in Kiwi Land:
                               

            " She'll be right mate, she'll be right,
              Don't worry mate she'll be right !
              You can catch your piece of pork
              When she slows down to a walk.
              So don't worry mate, she'll be right !

                  _____                    
                 /     \      _n_  ______  
                 |Oink!|_   _/o  \/      \@
                 \_____/ \ O_             )
                             \___/\______/ 
                                   ||  ||  

Bye,