AsciiArtists

greetings folks,

I came across this site, http://www.mirc-rainbow.com, a mirc related site
which shows alot of ascii art, colored.  There is a link to a site for
E-Cards.  On that site is 'romanic' cards.  The third row down, first card,
shows a heart and rose saying I love you.  Its Joan Stark's drawing with
someone else's name on it.

I lurk here and enjoy all the artist's drawings and wanted to let you know
that piracy still is rampant on the net--and in this case, a pretty well
known and seen drawing of JGS.  Its very sad the author's initials get lost
and hope by posting here others viewing here and copying art will understand
how important it is to maintain the author's copyright.

thanks for providing me with fun viewing of your drawings.

best wishes, MariaLana





 -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----
  http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups
   NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts
made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abu...@newsone.net

In article <99ojmv$u8c$1...@news.netmar.com>, <M...@usahome.com> writes:
>greetings folks,
>
>I came across this site, http://www.mirc-rainbow.com, a mirc related site
>which shows alot of ascii art, colored.  There is a link to a site for
>E-Cards.  On that site is 'romanic' cards.  The third row down, first card,
>shows a heart and rose saying I love you.  Its Joan Stark's drawing with
>someone else's name on it. snip...

I am responding here in my original post, had problems posting in patches
reply which was�


patches wrote:
MariaLana,

I've no intention to start anything here with you. However, I would like to
state that you should really check your facts before you go around accusing
others of theft.  Yes, that picture is without outside credit to jgs, an
unfortunate mistake on the part of pete, until a few weeks ago, he had no
idea
he needed to add those as he is not that familiar with ascii art, and I was
neglect in my part to ask him to do so.  We were starting a new section on
the
website where we would feature colored ascii art pictures so others could
share
in the art together.  The actual mirc picture that was made does not have
"angltooch's" nor "jgs" credit on top, but they are underneath the art
itself.
(A common practice in mIRC colored ascii art, not the best method, but the
only
one at this point to use since adding a "color artist" and a "ascii artist"
does
interfere in the look of the finished picture.) It is extremely difficult
also
when capturing the art to be sure the initials are shown, however, should you
get the file ... most using the website view the shows section and grab the
files and when played if they drag the art, the initials are seen. Some
artists
even keep the initials on top (how it should be) but we don't make it a "You
must do that", we simply ask them to keep the initials in, hidden or not.  We
really believe that is enough to keep everyone happy.

We are making the attempt to correct those, you must have used the menu in
the
top frame as the one in lower frame had been disabled so we could make those
fixes, and I neglected to remove the one from the top menu, which as of this
writing is now removed from the site so that no more problems will occur.

However, jgs herself has been to the #mIRC_Rainbow channel on Undernet, she
knows and understands to my knowledge how we color and maintain the art.  We
strongly encourage that ascii art initials and credits be maintained in the
art,
and we do make every possible attempt to keep the integrity of the ASCII art
community happy in that manner. We are aware of the problems with the removal
of
initials, but one picture does not make us thieves.

Please try coming to mirc so you can see how we do things.  I will not be
watching or responding to any other messages in this forum about this, should
you care to email me in this matter, my email address is:
pat...@mirc-rainbow.com ... I didn't happen upon this note either, as I do
not
read the ascii art groups any longer, it was sent to me by another person who
does read this group.

The next time you decide to go around accusing someone of theft, I would
strongly suggest you view other mirc websites and you give me the opportunity
to
fix in email.  I know my email is on every page of that website, and the
email
works and is good... so give us the benefit of the doubt before you decide to
blast us for theft... 

btw, thank you for pointing out the error on the site with the menu... I have
fixed that now .... :)

Thank you,


patches
Owner of http://www.mirc-rainbow.com
Owner of The Original #mIRC_Rainbow - Undernet 


My response:

Patches,

These are your own words on your own website:

""""Ascii artists deserve the same respect, if there initials are on their
art, please respect their rights, they are the original artist of that work
and deserve to have there initials left in that art. They are the sole owner
of that art and if they chose to share it with you on there website for you
to play with, and color then put your own initials in, you should respect the
original work and keep there credit no matter what you change in that file. 

"""The reason why you shouldn't remove these credits, or alter art without
permission.  Its called theft. If you were to write a website, make your own
graphics, draw your own art, color your art in mirc, put your name on it, or
even write a script only to have someone take and remove it, I guarantee, you
will be mad, then hurt. and while you might go on still coloring, because you
know others enjoy and respect your art, you don't forget that others are
simply disrespectful to take something you worked so hard on in the first
place.  While we might not be able to prosecute, this website will indeed
publish known cases of web theft or art without hesitation.""""

You put a file on the ascii-card link website which clearly showed the author,
as being ANGLTOOCH---IT WAS DIRECTLY ON THE PICTURE.  I was pointing out this
error to show how drawings get changed, and in this instance, the original
author was not on the art, SOMEONE ELSE'S NAME was on the drawing.  Before
this oversight was corrected recently, how many people sent this card to
others with the name ANGLTOOCH on it as the author?  Thus begins the
misconception.

It is my understanding, and you seem to agree, that if you take something, a
graphic or in this case, ascii drawings from the author, their credit should
be SHOWN OUTRIGHT on your webpage.  But you disagree about Mirc, a chat
program, which is another forum to display ascii art.   You indicate coloring
skills are compromised by displaying the original artists signature outright:
as you say: "interferes in the look of the finished picture".  Therefore, the
original ascii artist will not always get 'visible to the naked eye'
recognition; only those savvy enough to drag the picture to 'view' what is
�hidden� behind the color codes will really know who actually drew it. 

You �captured� a picture on mirc, converted it to a graphic to be displayed on
the website and the way it was displayed on mirc (no visible author initials
AND then later the graphic altered with another name on it), is the way it
was placed on your website.  And there the degradation begins.  And then it
makes its way thru cyberspace with the original author lost.  You state to be
the owner of mirc rainbow website that endorses your chatroom.  But you apply
no consistency for how drawings obtained from the ascii community are
displayed in your chatroom.  Some show visible credit, some are hidden.
Everyone is happy?

People who point and click color codes on someone else's drawing are not the
original artist, and if they want to be credited for their 'enhancements' to
something they did not draw, give the originator their credits for EVERYONE
to see. Buy a coloring book....color an image, scribble a few words as a
caption on the page.  Go to the beginning of the book and read the credits,
ILLUSTRATIONS BY.  There you will see �the artist�.  Its not a secret, its
not hidden, its a copyright.

I  love the ascii artists here, jgs, b�ger, andreas, Veronica, shedragon, MJP,
llizard, Krogg, so many to name, and it compels me to express my concern on
what happens when ascii drawings leave the net or this forum.

My apologies to the aaa newsgroup for all this text.

Best wishes,
MariaLana



 -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----
  http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups
   NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts
made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abu...@newsone.net

Wow with all the energy you put into this letter you could have solved the
problems in the middle east! It's just ascii art for christ's sake not the
secret formula to end world fammon!

Regards,
Bill

In article <9a15g5$v1g$1...@news.warwick.net>, Bill
<kea...@tempusmedia.com.nospam> writes:
>Wow with all the energy you put into this letter you could have solved the
>problems in the middle east! It's just ascii art for christ's sake not the
>secret formula to end world fammon!
>
>Regards,
>Bill
>
>
Some people might enjoy taking your flash intro you designed for the mirc
rainbow website, alter it for their own use, get rid of your copyright,
without permission.  And goodness knows there are enough warnings on the mirc
rainbow website about taking anything on it without permission. *wondering
why*  Too bad the same courtesy doesnt apply to the ascii community's
websites--'its only ascii art'.  Just take, alter, do whatever without asking
if its ok.  Would it be ok to take one of the files on the mirc site for
download, strip all the color codes on text pictures not drawn by them, get
rid of the caption enhancements and replace 'colored by' to DRAWN by--oh and
'hide' any reference to whoever wrote the macros to play the picture.  Lets
not forget how its so improper and downright theft to alter a mirc file. 
Interesting isnt it? Since you obviously promote your business via the web,
you might want to share copyright food with the mirc rainbow owner--maybe
not, its only a web design service you provide.

regards,
MariaLana



 -----  Posted via NewsOne.Net: Free (anonymous) Usenet News via the Web  -----
  http://newsone.net/ -- Free reading and anonymous posting to 60,000+ groups
   NewsOne.Net prohibits users from posting spam.  If this or other posts
made through NewsOne.Net violate posting guidelines, email abu...@newsone.net

[Oh dear! One does find interesting things sometimes! (yes, I'm a little
bit behind in my reading)]

[The post I'm responding to was sent three weeks ago, and the name
"patches" sounds way too familiar in this context. She's been doing this
before, and been criticised for it, so our reaction to her (and her
friends') behaviour is NOT news to her...]


patches wrote:
> 
> >""""Ascii artists deserve the same respect, if there initials are on their
> >art, please respect their rights, they are the original artist of that work
> >and deserve to have there initials left in that art. They are the sole owner
> >of that art and if they chose to share it with you on there website for you
> >to play with, and color then put your own initials in, you should respect the
> >original work and keep there credit no matter what you change in that file.
> 
> You are correct, all of this is on my website, but not in the eCards section,
> and it is only in the "shows" and file download sections" and as I stated
> before, I am not responsible for the eCards section of the site. 

This is not clear. In fact, it says on the eCard page:

  "All material on this site copyright mIRC_Rainbow.
   Webdesign & coding by P.G Smith. Made possible
   thanks to Patches:)".

Further, the eCards section is presented as a *part of* your website.
The exact words on the main page are:

  "Places To Visit Within #mIRC_Rainbow's Home."

followed by a number of links, one of which is to the "eCards" page. At
the bottom of the page it says:

  "This site is owned & maintained by M.Pe�a (patches)".

> It is the only
> section of the site that I do not do any work on at all.  Pete is aware of the
> problems there and is fixing them. 

I follow the description in the original post and have no problem
finding the file in question:

   http://www.mirc-rainbow.com/ecards/cards/romantic_1.gif

I even went so far as to save a copy and open in a graphics program
(xpaint). I then "poured" green colour into the black background area
(to reveal if there are any almost-but-not-quite black pixels in the
picture). The whole area filled up. The information (Joan's initials)
could not be found in the picture. The only artist mentioned in that
picture is AnglTooch.

I then looked around and saw that it wasn't just ONE picture either...

<snip>
> However, there is at least one section on the website where there is other art
> with many ascii artists involved (and we aren't talking 12 pictures, we are
> talking more in the neighborhood of 2000 pictures),

"12"?

*counts pictures*

I find 7+21+14+7+3=52 pictures.

Of these only about half have the artist's initials on them (most of
those are by Sher). In particular, the picture that started the
discussion still does not have Joan's initials on it.

[BTW, the ambulance picture is broken, and one of the birthday cake
pictures is broken, and the apparent link to "Friends" isn't clickable]

> and while the art does not
> show anyones initials itself, the pages do show who 'colored' the art. 

That information is completely uninteresting to the original artist.

<snip>
> We can't all be perfect, we try our best to give credit where it is deserved,
> but its not going to always happen. 

As I mentioned already, this is not the first time.

> However, it is not theft.  The actual image
> for mirc does have the initials

The actual image that appears on the web does not.

> and no art will be displayed that doesn't get credit. 

This link leads to a picture that is displayed without credit:

http://www.mirc-rainbow.com/ecards/cards/romantic_1.gif

(Surely *three weeks* is enough to put initials on 52 pictures?! Yet
only half of them have been fixed!)

> I realize I am not making this any better, but I don't have any perfect
> answers and I am not planning to pull the art just because someone might think
> "I stole it".  I didn't.  I don't consider showing it on the web as stolen
> art... credit or not.. I know that the art that is played in mirc has the
> credit, and thats really where it counts, since the only place people can play
> the actual art is in mirc itself.  All they can do on the web is enjoy it.

Huh? Surely the publically accessible World Wide Web counts at least as
much as your little chat room?! And *where* is the difference between
"playing the actual art" and (only?) "enjoying it", from the
readers'/audience's" point of view? The individual pixels that appear on
the viewer's screen has the same colour values in both versions! (I.e.
to a human eye they are identical!)

> I sincerely doubt that many cards were sent,

That is irrelevant. At least one person did see them, and reacted. The
polite thing to do in that situation is to either add the credits or
remove the pictures from the web.

<snip>
> The point here really is, that we are doing our best to insure everyone gets
> credit,

Then "your best" is not good enough, or you wouldn't keep getting
criticised for it.

> I have links to many ascii art sites on my site, I make people aware
> that the art itself is not always the artist who colored it, I do not personally
> try to take credit for any of it, nor do I let the color artist take full
> credit. 

Proof of the opposite:

http://www.mirc-rainbow.com/ecards/cards/romantic_1.gif

> When you capture the image from mirc, you can't see the initials, all
> you have to go by is the "show file image" which in 99.9% of all cases has the
> initials hidden under the art. 

And the people in this newsgroup (the same people who create many of
those images you like so much) keep telling you that that is just not
good enough. You can "hide" your own initials for the sake of
prettiness. That's OK, but when you do it to somebody else's pictures
it's *rude*.

<snip>

-- 
    (,         http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/
    /|__--__                       .                        __--__
    |\ '__                        /|\                        _{ _ 
    `.' / `.,_ _________           |           _________ _,.' (/ `.
    /  ||``._.'             ASCII ART CHAT!             `---'|:||,/
  .'   /|                                                   /|:| \
.'    /\ \         __   __                _                 `/|'\'
 ` `,/ /`,\        \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _         /,'\ \
   .'.'  /|         \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` |        |\  `.`.
 ,' /   / |          \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_|        | \   \ `,
- `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -