Original Usenet thread from alt.ascii-art, started 12 Jul 2001.
Jave1.1 released
alt.ascii-art
· 15 messages · 12 Jul 2001 - 25 Aug 2001
Hi,
It was hard work, but now it is done: The Jave Movie Player is
integrated into Jave. JMOV-animations can now be edited/viewed/created
in Jave.
But that's not the only thing new. Although I have concentrated on
fixing bugs and increasing usability, there are many new features to
have fun with.
[E.g. in the menu 'special' there are some surprises I am not going to
tell you about here :-)]
Have a look below for a list of what's new or download it from:
http://www.jave.de
Tell me what you think about it!
Have fun,
Markus
What's new:
* Movie Editor for JMOV-Files (Jave Movie Files)
You can now load/play/create/edit JMOV files
* Thumbnail Browser
- now a little faster
- can also display thumbnails for JMOV-Files
- can now be accessed from a button in Jave
* Edit Menu:
- paste as new document/paste as new selection
* Color schemes:
- now black on white is standard at startup
- Every document can now have its own color scheme (black on
white/white on black/black on gray)
* Ascii2Gif:
Size can now be adjusted in a wider range (not only thumbnail size
like in Jave1.0beta)
* Menu - Modify - Rotate:
Rotates document/selection 180degrees
* Menu Special (Well, I was playing around a bit...):
- Small tool for creating fractals (mandelbrot set)
- Ascii 3d renderer can create simple 3d scenes or animations
(rotates the scene 360 degrees)
- Two surprises - I am not going to tell you what it is, you have to
look at it yourself
- Something like a screensaver...
* Mouse movement:
Most actions with mouse can now also end outside the current
documents area.
This is often good for drawing shapes or moving selections (although
the document is not yet being
scrolled when you move the selection out of the visible area)
* Generic Tools (the green ones):
-adjusting the options (style/mix) for one of those tools will affect
all of them
-new style: dot
.'''.. .. : :
: '. ..' '. .'
: : ..' : :
: : :' '. .'
' '....'' '. .'
'''.....'''
* Thousands of bugfixes and smaller improvements
BTW: I have removed 'beta' from the version number, because I have not
received bug
reports for a long time now. I still know about some bugs in Jave, but
is there nobody
who wants them to be fixed? So if you find a bug or something you don't
like the way it
works (or not) please post a few words to mar...@jave.de. I will try to
fix it.
Also I would like to know what you think about the new features and what
other ideas you have.
What comes next?
- documentation (hopefully)
- bug fixes
Markus Gebhard <ukg...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote: > Also I would like to know what you think about the new features and what > other ideas you have. Well, since you asked, how about making it open source? Or at least telling us why it isn't? -Rus.
Russell Marks wrote: > > > Have a look below for a list of what's new or download it from: > > http://www.jave.de > > Well, since you asked, how about making it open source? Or at least > telling us why it isn't? Well, that's easy. There are two main reasons: 1) As kind of an experiment I have made the Jave Movie Player an open source project (http://www.jave.de/player/). This applet is a part of Jave (and it even contains the basic part of Jave's display engine). It is now online for about a month and I have not yet received a single line of comment about the source code. On the other hand it is much more work for me to look after the source code than simply releasing the binaries. So why should I make the whole Jave project open source? Actually nobody wants to work on it... 2) Jave is very complex. In my head I have a pretty good idea about how it works, what could be improved, etc. But I have no documents about that and the documentation in the source code is very poor. (It is by now way as easy as creating an object from the class Document and calling the methode drawLine() or so). To give you an idea about its complexity: The Jave Player (1.1 - not yet released) consists of: 8 class files with about 2,480 lines of code (_with_ documentation). Jave consists of: 93 additional classes for the basic functionality with about 70,000 lines of code (_without_ documentation) 21 classes for figlet 10 classes for the image2ascii converter 61 classes for graphical user interface 12 other classes So Jave consists of more than 200 classes with about 150,000 lines of code (more than 60 times the source code of the player!) ================== Conclusion: I will not release the source code of Jave. But: If you ask me for a specific feature, I will tell you how it works. And if you want to see the corresponding part of the source code I will let you have a look at it - although I do not believe it will make you see things more clearly. Now I would like to hear some arguments about the advantages for releasing the source code. Are there any to convince me? Markus PS: Ob-Ascii Asc-Tris :-) | | | | Score: 7206 | | Level: 5 | | | | | | | | | | | OOO | | OOO | | OOOOOO | Cursor Left: left | OOOOOO | Cursor Right: right | OOO | Space: drop | OOO | Cursor Up: rotate | | S: start new game | | Q: quit | | | | Next: | === SSS| MMMMMM | === SSS| MMMMMM |BBB ======SSSSSS| MMM |BBB ======SSSSSS| MMM |BBB MMM===######SSS| MMM |BBB MMM===######SSS| MMM |BBBBBBMMMMMM MMMWWWWWW######| |BBBBBBMMMMMM MMMWWWWWW######| |888EEEOOOSSSOOOOOO====== :::| NOTE: Obviously this |888EEEOOOSSSOOOOOO====== :::| Asc-Tris board is |OOO SSSSSSWWW===######:::| in desperate need of |OOO SSSSSSWWW===######:::| some cool Ascii Art to |OOOOOO ::::::WWWWWW###888===| look better. Post any |OOOOOO ::::::WWWWWW###888===| suggestions to -------------------------------- mar...@jave.de
> It was hard work, but now it is done: The Jave Movie Player is > integrated into Jave. JMOV-animations can now be edited/viewed/created > in Jave. As always .. it's excellent. However the image->ascii button doesn't bring up the dialog and seeing aws there is no menu item for , it is now an unuseable feature. BUG BUG BUG! :) I have some suggestions ( DOCUMENTATION! ) but i'm going down to the habour to see the dragonboat worldchampionships, ( www.dragonworld.dk ) and the danish royal family. C ya -CeeJay-
(I hope the group will tolerate this in the absence of an alt.ascii-art.d...) Markus Gebhard <ukg...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote: > Russell Marks wrote: > > > > > Have a look below for a list of what's new or download it from: > > > http://www.jave.de I didn't quote that, please don't misrepresent my posts. > > Well, since you asked, how about making it open source? Or at least > > telling us why it isn't? > > Well, that's easy. There are two main reasons: > > 1) As kind of an experiment I have made the Jave Movie Player an open > source project (http://www.jave.de/player/). This applet is a part of Bad choice for an experiment, IMHO. I suspect only people already using Jave would look at this - and why would you use Jave if you were a fan of open source? > Jave (and it even contains the basic part of Jave's display engine). > It is now online for about a month and I have not yet received a single > line of comment about the source code. On the other hand it is much more > work for me to look after the source code than simply releasing the > binaries. Not in the way you're suggesting. If you provide matching binaries, then any source code that compiles and has a licence is in an acceptable form for release (since you wouldn't expect users to compile it, just programmers). So this reason is invalid. > 2) Jave is very complex. In my head I have a pretty good idea about how > it works, what could be improved, etc. But I have no documents about > that and the documentation in the source code is very poor. (It is by > now way as easy as creating an object from the class Document and > calling the methode drawLine() or so). Many open source programs are poorly documented, and documentation of the source code itself is *virtually unheard of*. That makes two invalid reasons. Do you have any others? > To give you an idea about its complexity: [...] > So Jave consists of more than 200 classes with about 150,000 lines of > code (more than 60 times the source code of the player!) > ================== > Conclusion: > I will not release the source code of Jave. And again I must ask - why not? `It's big and was hard to write' is more of a justification for not freely releasing the *exectuable*. (Since you would presumably want to sell copies of the program as compensation for all your work, right?) But you already make the executable freely available, so your effort has *already* been given away. Releasing the source under (say) the GPL or a BSD-ish licence would be quite a small step by comparison, and yet it's a step that I think would help Jave in the long run. > If you ask me for a specific feature, I will tell you how it works. I think you already know that that's not the point. > Now I would like to hear some arguments about the advantages for > releasing the source code. Are there any to convince me? Yes. You already make the executable freely available. Why is the source different? -Rus.
Christian 'CeeJay' Jensen wrote: > > As always .. it's excellent. Thanks :) > However the image->ascii button doesn't bring up the dialog and seeing aws there > is no menu item for , it is now an unuseable feature. > > BUG BUG BUG! :) Ok, you are right. Thanks for your report. I have fixed this little bug and there is now a bugfix version Jave1.1a available for download from http://www.jave.de: * Fixed bug of image2ascii converter not working in Jave 1.1 * new Menu "Tools" contains image2ascii converter, figlet, textbox and clipart editor. Until now those tools were only available through buttons * 3d renderer: - speedup: now about 16 times faster. - new style: shaded j WW: WWW:: WWWWWW:: WWWWWWW:::: WWWWWWWWWW:::: WWWWWWWWWWW::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:::::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:::::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:::::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW:::::: WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW::::: WWWWWWWWWWW::: WWWWW:: > I have some suggestions ( DOCUMENTATION! ) but i'm going down to the habour to > see the dragonboat worldchampionships, ( www.dragonworld.dk ) and the danish > royal family. Have fun :) As always I am looking forward for your comments/suggestions. Markus
Russell Marks wrote: > > (I hope the group will tolerate this in the absence of an > alt.ascii-art.d...) > > > > > [...] > > I didn't quote that, please don't misrepresent my posts. You are right, I apologize. > > 1) As kind of an experiment I have made the Jave Movie Player an open > > source project (http://www.jave.de/player/). This applet is a part of > > Bad choice for an experiment, IMHO. I suspect only people already > using Jave would look at this Tha Jave movie/animation player project is not based on Jave - it work's independently and provides the most complete open file format for ascii animations I have seen yet. Up to now there were no advantages for me (and others) by releasing it as open source. > - and why would you use Jave if you were > a fan of open source? I am a fan of freeware rather than open source software. If someone does not like freeware (?) I will not try to force him to use any... (BTW: I am a fan of open source software when it is a about security resons. This is true for web servers, firewalls, mail clients, etc. - but I do not care that much about security in text editors) When using freeware I always know that there is somebody who feels responsible to fix bugs and to provide a stable version. With open source software I see two scenarious: 1) The apache scenario There are a lot of highly qualified people working on something that a lot of people need: A highly configurable web server, faster and more secure than others and not from a monopol company like MS. 2) pick-one-of-the-many-releases-and-fix-it-yourself scenario I think about the thousands of web sites with open source projects that are in fact dead. I have had this experience when looking for a good Java GIF encoder for example. There were many versions based on the same piece of source code - they all were different in some way and each of them was incomplete. Some of them were optimized for certain platforms and did not run on e.g. Linux any longer. I have had the same experience with some more or less complete programs... I do not think Jave belongs to scenario 1). And I do not want Jave to pass away. Instead I want to fix the bugs, write documentation and I want to make it work on as many systems as possible. This is my way of supporting open systems. There is one more thing you have to know: As soon as Jave becomes open source I will lose my motivation on working on it. And I am not going to be someone who coordinates new releases then. Jave grew from the fun I had and still have in writing extraordinary cool algorithms/tools. > If you provide matching binaries, > then any source code that compiles and has a licence is in an > acceptable form for release (since you wouldn't expect users to > compile it, just programmers). So this reason is invalid. So there are no disadvantages for me to release the source code, but what are the advantages? Why should I release it? > And again I must ask - why not? And I ask: why? Markus
[Snipped discussion re: Jave becoming Open Source, as this is more of a general comment than a reply to anything direct] Open source is a very good thing, IMHO, but it does have problems as Markus says, also I'm not convinced it will speed up development much (e.g. Mozilla - not that I want to get into a full debate on what's good/bad about that, only that Mozilla has been an open source project for a long time and still isn't perfect, while other browsers e.g. Opera appear to have managed to do a lot more in a similar timescale). Also, I know when I code something and I'm proud of it, I want it to be acnoledged [never could spell] as my own work. Markus should be very proud of everything he's done with Jave, and to be frank if he wants to keep it as his project he has every right to, whatever his reasons. I could understand people being upset at the decision if Jave was going nowhere and had a lot of potential but the program wasn't being improved - but he seems to be rolling out new versions at a rate of knots, each with an impressive set of new features - I'd be very surprised if an open source project could do that well. -- o |\ _[] L_ === Stuart Moore []\, stm
Markus Gebhard <ukg...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote: > Russell Marks wrote: [...] [Markus wrote:] > > > 1) As kind of an experiment I have made the Jave Movie Player an open > > > source project (http://www.jave.de/player/). This applet is a part of > > > > Bad choice for an experiment, IMHO. I suspect only people already > > using Jave would look at this > > Tha Jave movie/animation player project is not based on Jave - it work's That doesn't matter. The point is, only people using Jave would be interested in looking at it, however it may happen to be implemented. > Up to now there were no advantages for me (and others) by releasing it > as open source. But how do you know this? > > - and why would you use Jave if you were > > a fan of open source? > > I am a fan of freeware rather than open source software. If someone does I don't mean "you" specifically, I mean people in general. > When using freeware I always know that there is somebody who feels > responsible to fix bugs and to provide a stable version. With open > source software I see two scenarious: There is at least one you missed. Let me offer it to you here: 0) The zgv scenario :-) A slightly non-mainstream program gets mostly developed by one person working alone, with a steady stream of bug reports and, occasionally, a patch to add a new feature. Though I mention zgv just because it's `mine' :-) and I know it fits the description, IME this scenario is by far the most common one for open source programs. Don't confuse open source with `the bazaar'. > 1) The apache scenario > There are a lot of highly qualified people working on something that a > lot of people need: A highly configurable web server, faster and more > secure than others and not from a monopol company like MS. Ok, we can agree that Jave isn't likely to fall under this one... :-) > 2) pick-one-of-the-many-releases-and-fix-it-yourself scenario > I think about the thousands of web sites with open source projects that > are in fact dead. I have had this experience when looking for a good Open source code cannot die, as you are always free to hack on it yourself (as are others). (Example: I use an open-source Z80 assembler first written over 20 years ago.) If I stopped maintaining zgv, for example, I'm sure someone else would take over if they were sufficiently interested. Compare this with Jave; everyone is absolutely 100% dependent on you to keep maintaining it. If you stop, it really *is* dead, and all anyone can do is keep running the existing binary. > I do not think Jave belongs to scenario 1). And I do not want Jave to > pass away. [...] But this is one of the strongest possible arguments for making it open source. I'm amazed that you would think this an argument *against*! > There is one more thing you have to know: As soon as Jave becomes open > source I will lose my motivation on working on it. And I am not going to Why's that? > be someone who coordinates new releases then. Jave grew from the fun I > had and still have in writing extraordinary cool algorithms/tools. I don't understand this - why would it stop being fun just because people had access to the source? > > If you provide matching binaries, > > then any source code that compiles and has a licence is in an > > acceptable form for release (since you wouldn't expect users to > > compile it, just programmers). So this reason is invalid. > > So there are no disadvantages for me to release the source code, but > what are the advantages? Why should I release it? Ok, a few things to be said here which I've not already covered: - Even if you don't think anyone else will want to work on Jave, making it open source would mean that you'd no longer be the only person who could fix any bugs in it. - Jave is much more likely to get bundled with Linux distributions if it is open source. (Being written in Java is a bit problematic, but not as much as it used to be.) This could be an additional source of users, if that's something you're interested in. - If there are *no disadvantages to releasing the source* (as you seem to say above), it seems slightly bizarre not to release it. :-) > > And again I must ask - why not? > > And I ask: why? Indeed, but given the above I think "why not" may be the more compelling question. -Rus.
Hi,
Ok, there were a lot of great arguments for open source. But I would
like to close this thread in alt.ascii-art for I do not think it belongs
here. We could continue this thread by mail if you want.
This is how I think about Jave and open source now:
- I will not release the source code at this moment
- I will release the source code as soon as I discontinue working on
Jave
- I will think about releasing it earlier from time to time
Markus
PS: ObAscii 3d spheres
oOoOoOoooo:
oOoOoOoOoOoo:o::.
oOO8O8O8O8OOoooo::.
ooooOO8O8O8OOoooo::.:..
oOoOoo:o:o:oooOO8O8O8O8OOoooo::.:.
OOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.oOoOoOoOoOoo:o::.:...
oOO8O8OOoOoo:o::.:.oOoOoOoOoooo:o::.:..
OOOO88888OOOOoooo::::..o:o:o:o::::.:....
oOoOO8O8OOoOoo:o::.:...:o:o:o:o::.:....
oOoOOOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.:...oooo:o::.....
o:ooOoOoOoOoo:o:o::.:....OOOoOoo:o::
ooooOoOoOoooo:o::.:.:..8OOoOoo:o::.:
o:o:o:o:o:o::.:.:....888OOOOoo:o::.:.
:o:o:o:o::::.:...O8O8OOoOoo:o::.:..
:.:.:.:......OOOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.:..
:o:ooooOoOoooo:o::.:.....
:o:ooooOoooo:o:o::.:...
:::o:o:o:o::::.:.....
::::o::::::.:.:..
.:.:.:.......
In article <LNB47.36759$WS4...@news6-win.server.ntlworld.com>, Russell Marks <russell.marks@spam^H^H^H^Hntlworld.com> wrote: >> > And again I must ask - why not? >> >> And I ask: why? > >Indeed, but given the above I think "why not" may be the more >compelling question. > >-Rus. I follow alt.ascii-art from time to time, and have read with interest the annoucements of new release/features in jave. However I have not tried using Jave, simply because it is a closed-source program. Seriously, unless you plan to release Jave as a commercial product, you can only benefit by talking the Free Software route. You do not lose anything by opening the source - you still own the copyright, you still have control of the project, and you can still make jave better. For example, if you consider the Linux Kernel, the official 'Linus Torvalds' version is completely controlled by Linus, and anybody who wants can take that and do with it as they like. Linus has complete control over whether or not he includes patches from other people in his kernel. If he really wanted to he could reject all outside help and advice. However, the linux kernel is independant of Linus, and so is unlikely to ever dissapear. Nobody can force you to Open Source Jave, and it's no skin off my nose if you don't, sooner or later, somebody else will do something similar, and Jave will die. Rob
On Mon, 16 Jul 2001 17:23:31 +0200, Markus Gebhard <ukg...@rz.uni-karlsruhe.de> wrote: >PS: ObAscii 3d spheres > > oOoOoOoooo: > oOoOoOoOoOoo:o::. > oOO8O8O8O8OOoooo::. > ooooOO8O8O8OOoooo::.:.. > oOoOoo:o:o:oooOO8O8O8O8OOoooo::.:. > OOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.oOoOoOoOoOoo:o::.:... > oOO8O8OOoOoo:o::.:.oOoOoOoOoooo:o::.:.. > OOOO88888OOOOoooo::::..o:o:o:o::::.:.... > oOoOO8O8OOoOoo:o::.:...:o:o:o:o::.:.... >oOoOOOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.:...oooo:o::..... >o:ooOoOoOoOoo:o:o::.:....OOOoOoo:o:: > ooooOoOoOoooo:o::.:.:..8OOoOoo:o::.: > o:o:o:o:o:o::.:.:....888OOOOoo:o::.:. > :o:o:o:o::::.:...O8O8OOoOoo:o::.:.. > :.:.:.:......OOOO8OOOOoOoo:o::.:.. > :o:ooooOoOoooo:o::.:..... > :o:ooooOoooo:o:o::.:... > :::o:o:o:o::::.:..... > ::::o::::::.:.:.. > .:.:.:....... This is really nice. I haven't seen 3D-shading in ASCII art for a long, long time... most if not all is flat line, cartoonish stuff. This is one I made in a past life by hand, it works better with bright text on a dark background. (e.g. select it if your screen is white) .----------------------------------------------------------------------. |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. _.-._.-._.-. _.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._. .::db .-._.-._. .::db .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._ .::d88b -._.-._ .::d88b -._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. .::d8888b .::d8888b ._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.- .::d88!::::::::::::d888888b _.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.- \ Y88\_________\ Y888888P _.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. \ Y8888P ._.-. \ Y8888P ._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._ /dbY88Pdb _.-._ /dbY88Pdb _.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. /d8P_YP Y8b .-. /d8P_YP Y8b .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.- /d8P .-.\ Y8b /d8P .- \ Y8b -._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._ .::db/d8P _.-. \.::db/d8P _.-. \ Y8b ._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-. .::d88bYP ._.-. .::d88LSP ._.-._ \ Y8b ._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.- .::d8888b .::d8888b`b _.-._. \ Y8b:db _.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._. .::d88!::::::::::::d888888b`b .-._.- \ YPd88b .-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._. \ Y88\_________\ Y888888Pd8b .::d8888b -._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.- \ Y8888P -._.- \ Y8888P!::::::::::::d888888b ._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-. \ Y88Pdb ._.-. \ Y88Pdb_________\ Y888888P ._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._ \__YP Y8b _.-._ \__YP Y8b`P -._.- \ Y8888P -._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._. \ Y8b .-._.-. /d\ Y8b .-._.-. /dbY88P .-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.- \ Y8b -._.- /d8P\ Y8b -._.- /d8P_YP _.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. \ Y8b /d8P _\ Y8b /d8P _.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._ \ Y8b:db/d8P ._ \ Y8b:db/d8P ._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._. \ YPd88bYP -._. \ YPd88bYP -._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._. .::d8888b .::d8888b .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._ .::d88!::::::::::::d888888b -._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._ \ Y88\_________\ Y888888P -._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._. \ Y8888P .-._. \ Y8888P .-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.- \ Y88P _.-._.- \ Y88P _.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| |_.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-. \__YP ._.-._.-. \__YP ._.-._.-._.-._.-._.-._.| `----------------------------------------------------------------------' Solid 3D -- Ceterum censeo Microsoft esse delendam
--(Once apon a time, in alt.ascii-art,)-- --(Lennert Stock said it like only they can.)-- > > it works better with > bright text on a dark background. > <snip> I almost laughed when I realized that most people probably read ASCII art on a white background of some GUM and not the blackness of the console. Thanks for fscking my paradigm. -- --(tty...@faux.local|04:45|/home/faux)-- cat .sig GUI's are for slackers. Get ibpconf.sh 6.1 on freshmeat.net --(tty...@faux.local|04:45|/home/faux)-- export UIN=66618055 It's a damn poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word. - Andrew Jackson
Sniper zaps a wand of undead turning at the thread!--More-- [long lines wrapped] Sniper <sni...@ukrmREMOVETOMAIL.net> wrote: > Captains Log Star Date 16 Jul 2001 15:50:48 GMT,alien life > enx...@unix.ccc.nottingham.ac.uk (ROBERT HART) contacted us and said: [...] > >I have not tried using Jave, simply because it is a closed-source > >program. > > Why, Closed source != Bad. Your opinion. Some people *do* think closed source is bad. > If you have no need for Jave, then why should it make a difference, if See above. > you have a need for it, but want one open source, write it. If not, If I did, I would. > >Seriously, unless you plan to release Jave as a commercial product, > >you can only benefit by talking the Free Software route. You do not > >lose anything by opening the source - you still own the copyright, > >you still have control of the project, and you can still make jave > >better. > > ????? > > How does one make profit from a free application? the point | v ______ . _________. . . huh? why? what? eh? `---' ^ | you The point here is that Jave *isn't* commercial, and is already being distributed in executable form for free. Now, reread the above in that context. > >outside help and advice. However, the linux kernel is independant > >of Linus, and so is unlikely to ever dissapear. > > Actually, this is not true. Linus still has copyright on the code, if > he decided to start charging for it, then there would be problems. Wrong. Linus does not hold copyright on the majority of the kernel these days; he couldn't relicence it unilaterally. And *anyone* can charge for Linux, you just can't stop other people giving it away. > >Nobody can force you to Open Source Jave, and it's no skin off my > >nose if you don't, sooner or later, somebody else will do something > >similar, and Jave will die. > > This is not the case I think, if Jave is better, then most people will > use it. This is naive IMHO. Most people will use what they're familiar with. > Hell why do you think more people use closed source software > than open? See above. And ad-numerum arguments are not especially convincing. -Rus.
Markus Gebhard wrote: > Ok, there were a lot of great arguments for open source. But I would > like to close this thread in alt.ascii-art for I do not think it belongs > here. We could continue this thread by mail if you want. There is always alt.ascii-art.endless-blabla :-) -- (, http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/cgi/asciichat/ /|__--__ . __--__ |\ '__ /|\ _{ _ `.' / `.,_ _________ | _________ _,.' (/ `. / ||``._.' ASCII ART CHAT! `---'|:||,/ .' /| /|:| \ .' /\ \ __ __ _ `/|'\' ` `,/ /`,\ \ \ / /__ _ _ ___ _ _ (_)__ __ _ /,'\ \ .'.' /| \ V / -_) '_/ _ \ ' \| / _/ _` | |\ `.`. ,' / / | \_/\___|_| \___/_||_|_\__\__,_| | \ \ `, - `- -- `-'- -ejm-------------------------------------VK-- -`-' -- -' -
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