Re: Rude folks, indeed.....

JRO <ogl...@mail.fullnet.net-remove> wrote in message
news:3753e97d.0@206.103.97.91...

Hi Jonathon,

I try very hard (after having been in IRC for so long) to not read more into
something than what I see.  I almost feel as I read thru these posts that no
matter how much someone tries to help in this situation with you, your
attitude is such that you won't even give a note to those artists who
actually do draw there own and color it. I realize that you didn't start
this thread about those who do, but the more I read these posts, the more I
wonder what your real intent is.

> by people on this newsgroup. Credit to the authors of those pictures was
done in various
> ways by the people who had colored them, although there were many that
gave no credit at
> all. I saw none where someone was deliberately claiming authorship of
ascii pictures that

The one thing you don't see is and yes in almost all cases artists initials
are "hidden" in the art. Its not just the ascii artist itself, it is the
person who colored it as well.  It really does depend on the person coloring
the picture and how they choose to show the art and the credit.  I can't
make this argument without feeling odd here, because I have hid the ascii
artists initials myself when I color. (the initials are still there, you
just can't see them, and it is very common on irc to 'drag' or 'hilite'
colored art) I don't have a really great reason for doing so other than that
if you take a small picture lets say 5 lines of ascii art, color it, and add
your own little nick which is also hidden then you have two names under the
art.  Earlier art shows that there are just two nicks in the art, art from
today usually comes with the "hjw" or "jgs" still in the art, but some
artists will do a "colored by therenick" type of thing or will show the
ascii artists nick and choose not to show there own.  As ascii artists have
a certain style, so does a color artist, and I'm sorry, but just because we
color your art, doesn't make us lower or petty.  If ascii art wasn't to be
colored, then why do some ascii art sites color there own art, or even
animate it to that degree.  I am afraid that even if ascii art wasn't
colored that "mirc and pirch" users would color the art anyway and some
ascii artists may even like seeing how it hilites and looks with areas of
the art colored.  So having two different sets of initials at some point
becomes confusing, because people will wonder who's it is, but I have
honestly learned something with this, and will add a note when I show people
how to color to add a "colored by there nick" so that it is clear who drew
and clear who colored the art for future reference.  I hope anyone here
reading this will see it and do the same so that it will not be as confusing
in the future.  I believe tho that in all fairness that someone who took the
time to color it deserves some recognition for it as well.  Some artists
choose to show the artist underneath picture as well with a

Ascii Art: hjw
Colored by Tera

type of thing, even a known color artist who goes by Kris does the same
thing.  Others choose to add the ascii artists initials with a shadow color
so that it is still there and can still be seen although isn' t the main
focus of the art, which I think is actually nicer as the shadowing lends
itself nicely and is something I have done as well. I don't always hide the
initials, and I do not color alot of art either, and as of late I have even
just drawn my own as I tend to like doing my own thing as well.  I do not
need to be famous or well known, that is not the reason I am in IRC.

> almost complete lack of mention given to the people who really make the
ascii that is so >loved for colorization on IRC. Even on your own web site,
what I saw was links to this >newsgroup, and the "Ultimate Ascii Links" web
page, which were listed as "Places To Get

well, this would be my website indeed, I have always had the link to the
main list, as my intent was not to show favoritism towards one website over
the other, and I had always used that list myself to visit those sites.  I
list the newsgroups, because I follow them myself and enjoy them. It is fun
to see people get excited over the first thing they drew, or to see someone
compliment them. but no where in the links section did you see any one ascii
artists website singled out.

Joans website was my "pick for the month in April" simply because each time
I go to her website it is always fun and entertaining to visit, it is not
just about the "ascii art" it is about having fun when you are visiting and
her website always holds something new and exciting to see there.   (She
likes java and so do I), (that was actually my main reason) (not because I
have chosen to show favortism, and even when she has appeared in IRC, I have
tried not to do the same thing) I'm sorry, just because you may be famous
doesn't mean I'm going to hold you in esteem should you visit my channel,
nor does it mean I'm going to give you ops because an ascii artist might be
famous'  While others in my or even someone elses channel may do that, it
won't happen from me, as I believe that the person wishes to be treated the
same way and with the same respect anyone would get.

>     It might be nice to see a little more attention paid to the wording of
some of those links
> to ascii sites (some pages have none at all, of course). Or a kind word or
two on these

I have to wonder here when you were visiting these websites how much of a
site you saw.  Even if it were my own website, certainly you saw enough art
to realize that credit is given where its known and even as I go thru and
revamp my website which at the moment is actually being done, I have started
adding the initials of the ascii artist where it is known.  I started that
long ago, but the website also gets a back door to my real life, which only
gets updated when I actually have the time to do it.

> who made serious art; the kind that hangs in places like the Smithsonian
Institute. Text-art is

Perhaps your right, art is only in institutions where it is recognized,
however, there are all kinds of art forms and ways to express ones self.
Whether its an artist to who paints with oil, one who paints with fabric,
one who paints with metal or even one who paints with the click of a mouse
it is still a form of expression and art itself is a form of expression.

> they really do make a picture, and so qualify as "art". Others are
likewise text-art, and some are extended character text-art. The majority of
these color-texts are borders and curlicues, however...

hehehe, now see, theres where I am getting this note of sarcasm from you, I
really hope I am just misinterpreting that. Isn't "ascii art" considered art
without the extra fonts, and without the use of alt characters either, just
the basic keyboard art.  Artists in mirc and pirch have the option to use
the 'alt' characters as that is something that shows up in mirc and pirch
and even the maker of a well known color add on for color artists in mirc
and pirch adds the alt characters in the program for ease of use I assume
for artists to use.  and these if I understand right, I am not sure on this
tho, are a windows font of some sort or other.

> and colorized ascii, the finest of which is taken from folks here, of
course. Much of the ascii

Whether it is little squigglies or even a solid block of color it is still
an expression of one self and the way they express it. I gather that when
you were at my website you did not bother to look at all of the artists whos
art is featured there.  Of the 19 shows that are featured at my website, Ten
of the artists do not use ascii art, they actually color there own, and use
there own ideas to make art with, each varying in there own style and type
of format to color in.

Most artists even ascii I'm sure when they are starting out, start with
something they saw, and they either expand on it or try to do something like
it on there own.  Or even just playing with there pcs they come up with some
form of drawing.  In IRC most start with ascii art, we actually encourage
that as its a way to get them started when they wish to color in the first
place, but I really believe that the number of artists who continue to use
ascii art is fewer than the color artists who do there own art.  Its not
just about little squigglies or cartoons, its about the fun you can have
coloring like the days when you were a child with a crayon and a coloring
book :)

>     The glorification, zealousness, and jealous arguments that surrounds
"mirc-art" strikes    >  me as faintly ridiculous. I have been getting a
good bit of email from some
>  IRC-color enthusiasts,

well, just as you wish to defend "credit for an unknown art" since you don't
consider ascii art... "art"   hehehe... I loved that one, I consider it
art.... mirc and pirch artists have the right to also claim art where its
due.

> sure Krogg would be pleased to hear there are ladies out there, seething
and ready to kill

lol, I bet he would.

>     For instance, I am told that portions of your repost are aimed at Ole,
aka Dane, who I am

Whele I didn't mention his name, nor did I mention his nick, and who cares
who it was in fact, I did it because there simply was no need to, the idea
was to state an example.  I usually try to show an example of something to
explain versus using words....I do not have the best way with words to
express what I usually am trying to point out.  (I am told this often and
now I actually believe it, so if I'm making even a point here it surprises
me)

>     I wish you much luck in making known whoever the man was that you
mentioned was displaying pirated

My website sees 65,000 ( ok, maybe I'm bragging here, but I can also back up
the facts with the stats, and yea I know that statistic still amazes even
me) visitors per week, I don't think I'll have a problem getting people to
see the page since I'll make it very obvious to see that page....somehow I
have this way of doing that....whatever I do manages to irritate
many....hehehe...probably even you today.
The mailing list has over 300 people on it, and the page will be announced
when it goes up, I want to expose him for the fraud that he is.  I doubt
very much he will use that nick after that page goes up, and if he continues
with his ways he will be exposed again.  The jerk even gave his picture to
someone....hehehe...now that took brains :) and so to take others art will
be something he will think about and if he doesn't, well, he won't use that
nick again.

> acii-art. I think the best path for exposing a plagiarist in action on
IRC, is that taken by
> the "fans", or "users" of ascii art, who recognize he or she as such. We
on AAA infrequently have to point

Whele for this artist in particular, his so called "punishment" is a
permanent ban in all rainbow channels on undernet.  And while he is free to
go on about how he is banned for this or that, people will soon realize the
true reason he is banned.

> and is trying to claim it as their own. Those kind of folks usually don't
return and make more posts,
> after being exposed. The problem is different on IRC, because you are
dealing with "chat", which is gone

> come back with a different nickname another time, or simply move to a
different channel and/or network.

your right, I've seen that happen here, and in IRC, the same thing happens,
a person will usually either disappear, or change there ways, which we have
also seen happen.

However, most people do come back, or the "color" in mirc and chat itself
would not even be at issue here, and most people just love the art, There
are far more who enjoy it and admire it than there are actual artists, and
its such fun to see them get so excited over being able to play with the
pictures (by play, I mean to display it in the channel)  For myself, the
funnest part of any time on IRC is when I help someone without any art at
all have art to play and have fun with in mirc.  It truly makes my day to
bring them such a simple pleasure.

>     As to the production of mass numbers of color files, I guess that's an
IRC issue which doesn't

Your probably right, but at the same time I used it only as an example to
make a point.

> and other items, come without credits or restrictions on their usage. Many
of the graphic artists who
> produced some of those items did receive recognition - often in the form
of a paycheck. No one pays

and some don't receive any compensation at all, they do it as a hobby,
something they enjoy and wish to share, is it so much to ask to give them a
link to there website or even credit for there art?   Sorry, maybe I read
that wrong from you, but I believe that anything you get free has a price of
some sort, even if they didn't ask for it, isn't recognition for them
justified as well for there effort.

> making the askei that they did make, instead of having someone steal it.
There are plenty of graphic
> artists who also do pictures, ect., for pure joy. I have not seen many
people attempting to garnish
> credit by plagiary of a background image; not yet, anyway. If it's a
problem for the graphic

those plagarizing are not gonna stand up here and say "hey I did it, I did
it" ...hehehe...but those upset over the accusation are going to be upset
such as myself when so many artists do make the effort to give proper credit
where its due...whats the saying...the needs of the many  outweigh the needs
of the few...I forget the exact words, but I think you see the idea, While
every attempt is made to the give artists there proper recognition, one bad
apple makes us all look bad and that simply isn't fair to lump us all into
one category just because one person might decide he/she is going to remove
the credit.  Even as you have seen your initials removed, a color artist in
mirc has also seen the same thing when her initials are removed or her art
is altered. She/he deserves the same respect you ask and want.

>     Fortunately, there are not many ascii art sites that don't give credit
to the authors who made
> the pictures. There are pictures whose author is unknown, but there a site
that doesn't credit

Your right, I have seen them disappear with time, which I am thrilled
about...when I saw my first ascii picture it was in genie about 4-5 years
ago and sites then (very different from sites of today) did not give credit,
nor was it as prevalent to do so.

> the artist is a rare thing, unless you are talking about IRC-color sites.
There may be many of

Unfortunately, while IRC color sites are very prevalent, they are more
interested in just being out there to offer files. That isn't really the
main focus of my website although it does offer alot to the user of mirc to
download. Art at my website is far more used than in any other website I've
seen.  Some sites choose not to use so much art or may not display for what
reason I do not know, (maybe they worry about bandwidth, or might not have
the space to do that) I truly love showing what can be done with art,
whether its ascii art, or even an artists original works.  My website
doesn't just offer a section where you can see shows, it also offers an
artists section in the download area that features the artists who have
colored and there individual works.  I am trying to redo that section to
give the credit for the ascii art even at the moment.  Maybe they just
haven't figured out how to "capture" in mirc yet I don't know.  I only know
of about 4 sites that show actual colored art, and of those sites, 1 has
more to offer than all of the other 3 combined and thats because I love to
show it off and I don't fear the part that says  "credit" hasn't been given
because I do try to give it where I can, and those seeing the entire site
would know that.

> contains many pictures that are stolen or deliberately miscredited. If you
know of pages such as
> these, whether they are real ascii sites or IRC-color sites, I think we
can speak for everybody
> in that we would like to know where they are.

and I would do it in a heartbeat, when I get my bookmarks back and have the
time to do so, I will let you know....(recent unexpected formatting lost my
c drive, and so much more) makes it impossible at the moment to give you
those sites.  but I will, as I will find them again, not hard to do tho, is
simply a search for the word ascii art in the search engines.  but I am not
sure I could tell you honestly if they are plagerized or sites that don't
give credit because the artist is unknown, but its my guess that in the
world of ascii art websites, sites that have unknown artists say the artist
is unknown.

> color art that doesn't often give credit, because she believes that once
she alters original ascii art, it becomes hers"[endquote]? Sure sounds like
"maryemd" to me. If it's maryemd or not, I think
> folks here on AAA would like to know about her. If you can help with some
kind of support to your claim, which I do not doubt is quite true, it would
be most kind of you.

this one is hard, (and no, its not maryemd, (I do not even know her), If I
didn't believe that she was honestly trying to change, I would not even
hesitate to tell, but at the moment I can not do it as some people are
trying to teach her to go a different route and I am afraid it would harm
the well meaning of those trying to help her change her ways.  I believe she
will change, its not her intention to take credit away on purpose, she just
doesn't know better and wasn't given the opportunity to really make that
change.  She loves to color ascii art and she does produce alot of art, she
has a spirit and comedic way of doing things that is genuine, funny and
given time she will do an about face.  She has never done what I would call
steal out and out, but she has altered art to suit her versus drawing or
doing something of her own and then claimed it as her own, but the art she
took was not "ascii artists'' from a website it was from artists inside mirc
who draw there own.

>     Ascii art is free. It's made and posted here on aaa, and on webpages
which are mostly
> associated with this newsgroup. The "artists" who make these pictures are
all happy to

> They receive little encouragement, less recognition, and no pay for their
efforts which
> many appreciate with only a passing muse of how clever it is. Perhaps that
is how it should > be, because

none of us would even give so freely of our time if we didn't enjoy sharing
Jonathon, while those here share their art, I share my gift of helping
others, and making and writing files that people do enjoy.  I really enjoy
these things, and I will defend the right to have credit, the right of theft
and anything I believe in to the end if I have to.  I have always been a
strong willed and minded person who wasn't afraid to speak her peace. :)  It
gets me into more trouble than I even care to talk about, but at the same
time I get the point across.

>     I reckon I have responded to most of your repost, Patches. Since you
are both knowledgeable and

hehehe....thanks :)

> have taken an interest in this issue, perhaps you would be good enough to
drop us a line, or > about where it's going on IRC. I myself think that more
of you colored-IRC folks ere tryin' to  > credit to peeple here who make
asskey, than ere not.

You spoke of visiting several channels in your first post and I believe that
you saw artists who did there own, spoke of whether they made it or not or
even said who did, so there are people who do give or say it isn't theres
and aren't afraid to tell people that.  Its just those few dummies who seem
to yes want some sort of fame or glory from saying its theres, and yet the
funnest thing imho is giving to a new person and letting them learn to love
it on there own.

I would love to further promote the use and love of ascii art at my website,
back in January, I attempted to email several ascii artists on a feature I
wanted to do called "Ascii Artist of the Month". Alas, not even one person
responded to my email.  I would still love to do this feature Jonathon, and
if your interested in helping to do this with me, I'll work with you on it.
We could easily add a section where artists could display several selections
of there art and a link would be added to there website or a place where
more of there art could be seen for all to enjoy and I believe it would help
to give recognition where its due for many artists who do deserve to be
recognized. I truly love ascii art Jonathon, and had I not done a "mirc"
website, I would have done a site on either ascii art or quilting....(my
other love) :)

I'll try not to be so quiet, here in the newsgroups in the future, but I
honestly didn't have alot to say beforehand, and while I've tried drawing a
few things, I'm not an ascii artist, and I do know this, but I do enjoy
seeing the fun things all of you make, I love seeing the excitement people
get from making there first as well.

again, long winded as usual, sorry about that,

patches
http://www.mirc-rainbow.com
pat...@mirc-rainbow.com

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