Re: [TALK] Re: ASCII Stuff

Mic Barendsz wrote:
> Veronica Karlsson schreef:
> > Mic Barendsz wrote:
> >> Veronica Karlsson schreef:
> >>> Mic Barendsz wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Is netiquette "strict"?
> >>
> >> Absolutely!
> >
> > I disagree.
> 
> Uh oh, discussion...
> ... and discussing with you was *never* such a good idea ;)

No? Why?   0:-)

> > It's not more "strict" than other plain politeness things,
> > like saying "please".
> 
> Good analogy. Don't get me wrong: I post the Netiquette-way myself.

I know, or this discussion wouldn't make sense by now.  :-D

> And top-posting is confusing. Especially in longer discussions like
> this one. But in some cases it can be more effective IMO.

I have found *one* use for top-posting and quoting the entire previous
post. For example, if I write to "the system administrator" that title
could be represented by anybody out of a group of people who have as
their job to read email to that adress. Then it makes sense to include
old things at the bottom (because they can't be expected to keep track
of what I was discussing with their colleague three days ago).

> For instance
> in this newsgroup I find bottom-posting more annoying when a large pic
> is quoted, then one has to scroll down and at the bottom it just says
> "Nice!".

In that situation, why keep the large pic in there at all? (it's not
just the before-after thing, it's the quote-everything thing as well!
many people who top-post do both those things, because they don't see
the end they forget it's there...)

> That's what I meant with 'strict': sometimes acting against the rules
> leads to more effective communication.

Yes, sure, but that usually only works when the person understands why
the rule is there in the first place and what the consequences of
breaking it will be.

> > It's simply not polite
> > to get "too polite" and personal in such discussions.
> 
> Hehe. Dunno about the newsgroups _you_ read. But in the nl-hierarchy
> the same people that top-post start with 'Hello,' and finish their post
> with 'Thanks in advance. Goodbye' if not 'Yours sincerely'.

The logic is that if it's sent to a newsgroup it should be directed to
the group, not to one person (OK, so you write "you" and mean the
previous poster, but the "target audience" for the discussion as a whole
should be anybody who cares to read it). Starting a message with "Hello
Mic!" suggests that message is meant for one person only, i.e. it's a
misplaced email message. Also, overdoing the politeness with the "hi"
and "bye" stuff can be seen as a waste of the reader's time.

> > Most
> > newbies who top post don't seem to have even thought about why they do
> > it.
> 
> For two reasons probably:
> 1. They haven't read about Netiquette or read the Charter, the FAQ;
> 2. They post to Usenet as if they write an e-mail.

Quoting myself from earlier in this discussion: Usenet is not email.

> BTW Because the old way is sometimes better I pulled up the [TALK]-flag.

Mmmm... and you don't have to be "stuck" to prefer the traditional way.

Clue: classics become classics for a reason.

> With 'babies' I meant the 'mobile kids' below. BTW What struck me also
> is the 'aging' of the Usenetters. Not that many teens and early twens...

How do you know? I think those groups were probably over-represented a
few years ago (in 1996 I got the impression that everybody here, except
Joan and Colin, were 20-25 years old).

> > They must be the same people who talk on their phones during films or
> > lectures. 
> 
> I'm not sure about that, because top-posters are in many cases the
> same people that start their post with 'Hello, etc.'.
> Moderate, polite people IRL probably.

...but Netiquette is not always intuitive (especially with some news
readers!). Its rules exist for a reason but people need to learn them.
For example, I could easily attach a 2MB BMP image to this post (just
click "Attach..." and choose a file) but I don't, because I have learned
that it is rude. If I want to show that picture to the group I should
save it to a more compact format, put it on the web, and post the URL.

http://www.ludd.luth.se/~vk/pics/temp/knives.jpg

(just an example)

"Intuitive" is not a synonym to "better".

> But 50% get freaked out when
> someone tells them to quit top-posting. And the flaming starts...
> At least this is what struck me when I came back to Usenet. And now
> in alt.ascii-art (home?) the same discussion...

Mmmm... and five years ago it was html posts... and in five years it
will be something else...

> >> And --also-- these grown-up babies aren't accustomed to *plain and
> >> hard*-UseNet manners. The logical way of communicating...
> >
> > Like, somebody actually telling them when they are being rude?
> 
> In a decisive, Beta-person manner. Yes.

?

> eerrr... this post could use some snipping

Why? You did respond to everything you quoted...


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