Re: So, You Want To Make Text Art?

JRO wrote:
> Veronica Karlsson wrote:
> > I hope they still feel welcome when they receive their fifth "You have
> > used a non-standard character. Please don't do that again." comment
> > after following the "advice" in his tutorial to use whatever characters
> > they happen to have on their keyboard...
<snip>
> > JRO is creating the opportunity for himself to correct people that way.
> > He does that sort of thing? Yes. This is from yesterday:
> 
> I'm sorry you had such negative experiences, in your early posts to AAA,
> Veronica.

I wouldn't call them "negative experiences", just "embarrassing newbie
experiences". I've done similar things in other groups, e.g this:

http://home2.swipnet.se/~w-20547/reference/ciwah-item1-en.html

I cringe every time I see it!   :-D

> I feel very sad that you were met with cruel flames, for your
> early mistakes. I wish I had been there, or some of the other nice people
> on this newsgroup, when you had your first ugly run-ins with some misguided,
> intolerant people, who thought "flaming" you was the way to guide you into
> your entrance to this newsgroup....

You are talking about "misguided flaming people" called "Joan Stark" and
"llizard" IIRC.

> Well, those people are gone, now.

Those people are still here, and I didn't mind too much (that was the
whole point of mentioning that example). It was irritating to be shown
up as ignorant in the group, but it didn't make me hate the people who
told me what not to do. If I had read the FAQ more carefully (and if the
FAQ had been less "fuzzy" on this point) I might not have made that
mistake to begin with.

> And
> I'm sure we're all glad they are. Be comforted. This is the New Millennium.
> We're going to try encourage more people to make text art; not spoil the
> fun.

llizard doesn't "spoil the fun" for me. She's one of the funniest people
I know!

> People who are new (to ascii) should be able to expect cheerful and
> helpful replies, whenever someone has time to answer them. People who are
> mean to new folks, for no reason, should expect flames, themselves.

A recipe for how to start a bad habit (without explaining that it is a
bad habit!) is not "helpful".

> If would make you feel any better, tell me who was mean to you when you
> started making ascii, and I will send them a nasty email.

As you can see above, their names are Joan Stark, llizard and Arjun Ray
(also a nice person who is still around), among others.

> > I'm not saying that he planned anything. I'm just noting that he doesn't
> > mind correcting others, but when the criticism is aimed at him then the
> > person who criticises is evil and out to humiliate him personally!!!
> 
> Sure! I totally conspired with both these folks, just to give you an
> example of a decent, reasonably polite repost to a posting of extended
> characters.

Read again (or have somebody explain it to you). I explicitly said I do
not believe you planned to correct them by deliberately giving them bad
advice. I said that you don't seem to mind correcting people when they
do make mistakes. It's when somebody points out that *you* have made a
similar mistake that you start flaming. You can dish it out but you
can't take it.

> > [Please note that the Bad Character thing is the _only_ point in his
> > tutorial that I am criticising. I'm getting long rants in return from
> > him because he doesn't like getting criticised, especially by me, for
> > some reason only he knows. This is not the first time this has happened,
> > though it's been kept in email before.]
> 
> You got one email, of a typical length that I compose.

I remember once getting a "typical length email" from you. I responded
to it. You responded with one that was several pages long. I took the
time to respond to that. The response you sent me then was just
incredibly long. I was busy right then and didn't respond to that one
immediately. A couple of days later I got some real grovelling from you,
apoligising and describing yourself as "mildly viscious". In the end I
didn't bother to respond to your looooooong rant at all.

> I'm sorry it was
> so much for you to read. Only for public will I make the point that I
> have reacted in such a seemingly harsh manner, because of the simple fact
> that I know you well enough to know that your primary purpose in reposting
> "criticism" to me, IS because you wish to humiliate me, personally, and on
> this newsgroup.

Then you clearly don't know me *at all*. Humiliating people is not a
hobby of mine.

> Just as you have sought to do others, in the past.

Names, please! (and/or message IDs)

> Here are a couple of favorite quotes of yours, from past conversations we
> have had:
> 
>     "Well, I feel like reading AAA, and seeing if there is anyone I
>      can flame today."
> 
>     "I love to look for some newbie to flame, when I feel bitchy."
> 
> Sound familiar? It should - you said it.
> 

I can imagine saying something like the first one when I have a
headache. I'm sure you feel that way too sometimes (in fact, I'm pretty
sure you felt that way a couple of days ago when you sent that double
rant to me...). I certainly do not remember writing the second one
("bitchy" is not a word I remember *ever* using).

> You know, I don't post "critiques" of your threads. Recently, I thought you
> were trying to act friendly, again.

This *is* a newsgroup. Nobody is above criticism. When you write
something that is wrong or something that somebody doesn't like you can
expect to get criticised for it. That's the way it works. Live with it!

> Well, I will go back to acting friendly. If you post some art, I will give
> you a nice repost - maybe even apply a little suction.

And if I don't post some art? What will you do then?

> Would that make you feel wanted?

If I want to feel wanted I call my mother.

> FYI - the first versions of that "tutorial" I had written, did contain
> ascii charts, definitions - paragraphs full of boring stuff, that would
> probably have had you over excited. After talking it over with some other
> artists, and some people merely interested in text art, I cut that stuff
> down to the absolute bone.

It seems you cut a little bit too far...

> People wanting to make ascii, aren't looking
> for a glut of rules and charts. All they want is some simple step-through,
> to show them how to get started.

That's what tutorials are for. I'm not saying there shouldn't be
tutorials. I'm just saying that the things they teach should be correct.

> Providing them with more in-depth information can come later...

Nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't consider knowing which
characters are "good" and which are "bad" to be "in-depth information".
I would consider it to be *very basic* information. What you're doing is
similar to if a teacher of an oil paint course did not first explain to
his students that they *must not* put oily rags in the wastepaper basket
(OK, your house won't burn down if you use the wrong character, but your
butt may get scorched anyway...).

> You might notice I only have two of those things, more or less complete.

I didn't know you had *any* until you posted them.  *shrug*

> I do plan on making more. To make you happy, I will probably
> have to write a decent FAQ

You don't have to do anything to keep me happy. I am quite happy with
Matthew Thomas' FAQ. I was quite happy with Bob Allison's FAQ too.   :-)

> (I don't know if it's the acronym you like so
> much, or just the fact that most of them are too cryptic for the new [at ascii],
> enthusiast to wade through) for this newsgroup.

I repeat: You clearly don't know me at all.

1. I do not like things to be unnecessarily cryptic. I spend a
   lot of time and effort on making things easy.

2. I do not particularly like the acronym "FAQ" (Why? See 1.)

The FAQ is not meant for the new ascii art enthusiast. It is meant for
new posters to the newsgroup alt.ascii-art. A new poster to the group
may also a new ascii art enthusiast, but that is no excuse for not
reading (and at least trying to understand) the group's FAQ before
posting away. That's how the social side of newsgroups work and is not
something specific for this group. A FAQ for a newsgroup is not a
*tutorial* (of anything other than how to behave in that particular
newsgroup).

> I have discussed this with
> some of the other artists here, for some time.

Names?

> I think it's time that the
> actual, regular-posting ascii people had a FACK that fits the newsgroup.

IMO it has had *that* for as long as I've been reading the group.

> It should take fifteen or twenty mintues to write, and I hope it makes
> you happy...

I think it would take you longer than that to *type* a FAQ that covers
everything that needs to be covered in a FAQ, but please try.

> Primarily, though, my purpose in posting those tutorials here, was to put
> out more material on the newsgroup, for the holidays.

Excellent!

> I do have these things
> on my page, but the main reason I have them written up into "tutorials", is
> I have written so many emails, individually to people, and they basically
> contained all the same information, that I started organizing them as you
> see. When I had written email after email to interested parties, and noticed
> that my fingers were getting worn typing the same kinds of things, over and
> over, I did them like this.

This is why FAQs exist.   :-)

> Also, people asked me for tutorials like these. So, I've made some.
> 

Good.

> Sorry you don't like my character-set explanation. I'm sure there is room
> for improvement in both that I have ready, and will probably be in the ones
> I have planned. There's room for improvement, in Dante's Inferno, too. Why
> don't you go try to embarrass him? Or you might have tried posting:
> 
>        This is pretty good, Johnny. I really think you should include
>        a chart, showing the ASCII character set. Like this:
> 
>                              ascii chart
> 

Like I've told you before, I don't lick people's butts. You posted
something that was incorrect and misleading and I responded to that.
Live with it!

> Personally, I think those charts are fine. But I took them out, because
> they weren't really necessary.

If they are unnecessary, how come so many people make the same mistake,
over and over and over again? I think llizard's version is the simplest
and least confusing. Why not use it (or something similar)?

> My "advice" wasn't bad - it was better.

Fact: Your advice was incorrect and misleading (and somebody had the
*nerve* to point that out to you).

> For the majority of new people (to ascii), who just want an idea of how
> they can start making text art, it's quick, easy, and uncomplicated. Then
> I move right along to some simple demonstrations, which makes up the bulk
> of the things, and is what they really want to read.

Fine.

> Oh well... I think you've had enough. I'm sorry I jumped on you, but you
> and I both know you were just trying to make trouble.

You may "know" this, but that is not the case. "Making trouble" (for the
sake of making trouble) is not a hobby of mine either.

> I've watched you do the same to Joan - among others - in the past.

I think you mean this thread:

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/viewthread.xp?search=thread&recnum=%3c3...@earthling.net%3e%231/1&AN=494329607&svcclass=dnserver&frpage=getdoc.xp

Yeah, I was *really* horrible to her crossposting here so she could have
a say in the matter rather than talking about her behind her back in
some other group.

> Well, I ain't gonna kiss you an' cringe, fer shit like that.

Nobody asked you to. Nobody can force you to. It's still a fact that the
method you advice people to use is bad and *will* eventually lead them
to get flamed in this group.

> You is a se'f- admitted, flaming troll.

No, I am sometimes a troll (but not in this group), and I sometimes
flame people. "Flaming" is not necessarily the same thing as "trolling".
My posting to point out that your advice was bad was not intended as a
flame either (or a troll for that matter).

Here's a bit of trolling, that is also on-topic for this group:

http://www.deja.com/=dnc/[ST_rn=ps]/viewthread.xp?search=thread&recnum=%3c3...@earthling.net%3e%231/1&AN=508474485&svcclass=dnserver&frpage=getdoc.xp

(starting with my post, "msg 219", which is a flame, but as people were
responding I turned the whole thing into a troll)

> Go back to your chatroom, if you can't behave here.

Or else - WHAT?

(I usually have the Chat Watcher turned on when I'm logged in, so no
need for me to "go back" there. I'm there already.)

> If you can behave here, you will see me do a complete 180.

And start being cute and sending me little messages like "Make love not
war!"? The horror!  :D:D:D:D:D:D

> It is probably better that I ignore any future posts of yours,

Probably, yes, since they seem to upset you so much.

> but I can be more magnanimous
> than that. Post pictures, and reserve your flames and attempts to degrade
> people to those who really deserve it

I do flame people sometimes, and they usually do deserve it. "Attempting
to degrade people" is, however, not a hobby of mine, either.

> - cross-posters,

Nothing wrong with crossposting when that is appropriate. E.g. if a
discussion is about how to display ascii art on web pages it may make
sense to crosspost between an ascii art group and an html group. It's
part of how Usenet works. It's a "feature" that is useful sometimes.

> completely off-topic strangers,

All newbies are strangers, to begin with. Most people make off-topic
posts sometimes. Flaming somebody because he's a stranger, even if he
does make an off-topic post, seems a bit hostile to me.

> and hecklers - and I will both pay attention to you, and be nice to you.

If I want attention I call my mother.

> And for "public" comsumption - I appologize for trashing out the newsgroup,
> by replying to Veronica.

Oh, is *that* what happened?  *lol*

> I am sure many of you may not realize why I did
> it. The reason is that I have had dealings with her in the past, and her
> criticism of my tutorial contained intent that you may not know about.

Apparently it must have contained some "intent" that *I* did not know
about... (hint: there was no "intent" other than to correct something
that was wrong, even harmful to the group! I can just see it: Newbies
coming in here, posting a few pictures, getting told not to use bad
characters, and pointing to your tutorials saying "JRO says it's OK to
use the characters on my keyboard, and that's what I did!")

> A
> flame-war, like this, runs off readers and posters, alike. She enjoys starting
> the things, but the rest of us generally do not like them.

My post pointing out a flaw in your tutorial was not meant as a troll.
The only thing here resembling a troll is your behaviour. I don't often
intentionally start flame wars, but I do sometimes enjoy taking part in
them. That's what Usenet is about - discussion! Live with it!

> I felt it was time
> she was showed her toes were over the line, with me, but I am truly sorry to
> have precipitated it.

:D:D:D::D:DD:D:D:D


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