Re: So, You Want To Make Text Art?

JRO wrote:
> Veronica Karlsson wrote:
> > Krogg wrote:
> > > Veronica Karlsson wrote:
> > > > JRO wrote:
> > > > > And then bothered to give a value explanation for all of them, perhaps going into
> > > > > bios-mapping, ect..
> > > >
> > > > This aaa version of this rant is apparently not quite as nasty as the
> > > > one you sent me in email. I quit reading *that* one after the first
> > > > paragraph...
> > >
> > > DAMIT....One of you,please email me a copy of the email
> > > version...I want to see the nasty parts.
> >
> > I'll gladly forward it to the group if its author allows me to do
> > that...
> 
> I'll save you the trouble. And I'm sure you read it all, since you know
> so much about how "nasty" it was. There is little need in trying to fool
> folks herethat you didn't, but if you want them all to see, so be it:
> 

The first paragraph of the letter was four lines. The first paragraph of
the post was one line.   *shrug*

I still haven't read it. I'll do that now.   :-)


>      That was good advice.

For people with American keyboards, *maybe*. For people with, e.g.
Swedish keyboards it was Bad Advice.

>    Most people post or read alt.ascii-art, for
>    enjoyment. They don't have Swedish keyboards.

Most Swedish computer users have Swedish keyboards. And I would expect
most Finnish computer users to have Finnish keyboards, and most Spanish
computer users to have Spanish keyboards, etc. The world *is* bigger
than just northern America.

>    They use standard
>    ones; 90-something percent of them do.

Here's that "90%" figure I mentioned in that other reply. Again: Is it
based on fact or did you invent it? (the fact that it's "90" here and
"99" in the other version would suggest that you invented it)

>    And most new people aren't
>    interested in being confronted with this:
> 
>   0    1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    A    B    C    D    E    F
> 0 NUL SOH  STX  ETX  EOT  ENQ  ACK  BEL   BS   HT  LF   VT   FF   CR   SO   SI
> 1 DLE DC1  DC2  DC3  DC4  NAK  SYN  ETB  CAN   EM  SUB  ESC  FS   GS   RS   US
> 2 SP  !     "    #    $    %    &    '    (    )    *    +    ,   -    .    /
> 3 0   1     2    3    4    5    6    7    8    9    :    ;    <   =    >    ?
> 4 @   A     B    C    D    E    F    G    H    I    J    K    L   M    N    O
> 5 P   Q     R    S    T    U    V    W    X    Y    Z    [    \   ]    ^    _
> 6 `   a     b    c    d    e    f    g    h    i    j    k    l   m    n    o
> 7 p   q     r    s    t    u    v    w    x    y    z    {    |   }    ~   DEL
> 

[This is where I stopped reading. I've seen your multi-page rants before
and know what they look like...]


And the thing they should "be confronted with" is this:

=================================================================
|                                                               |
| 32 SP | 33  ! | 34  " | 35  # | 36  $ | 37  % | 38  & | 39  ' |
| 40  ( | 41  ) | 42  * | 43  + | 44  , | 45  - | 46  . | 47  / |
| 48  0 | 49  1 | 50  2 | 51  3 | 52  4 | 53  5 | 54  6 | 55  7 |
| 56  8 | 57  9 | 58  : | 59  ; | 60  < | 61  = | 62  > | 63  ? |
| 64  @ | 65  A | 66  B | 67  C | 68  D | 69  E | 70  F | 71  G |
| 72  H | 73  I | 74  J | 75  K | 76  L | 77  M | 78  N | 79  O |
| 80  P | 81  Q | 82  R | 83  S | 84  T | 85  U | 86  V | 87  W |
| 88  X | 89  Y | 90  Z | 91  [ | 92  \ | 93  ] | 94  ^ | 95  _ |
| 96  ` | 97  a | 98  b | 99  c |100  d |101  e |102  f |103  g |
|104  h |105  i |106  j |107  k |108  l |109  m |110  n |111  o |
|112  p |113  q |114  r |115  s |116  t |117  u |118  v |119  w |
|120  x |121  y |122  z |123  { |124  | |125  } |126  ~ |       |
|                                                               |
| No, no, no, MUST'NT use ones that are not on the chart!       |
|                                                               |
=================================================================

That's not particularly "techy". It's just a simple list. If you don't
like that the characters are numbered, just shorten it down to something
like this:

==================================
ASCII character chart for dummies:
==================================
|This chart should be symmetrical!
| If it isn't, change your font  |
|til the i's and the m's line up.|
|                                |
|iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiii|
|mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm|
|                                |
| SP   !   "   #   $   %   &   ' |
|  (   )   *   +   ,   -   .   / |
|  0   1   2   3   4   5   6   7 |
|  8   9   :   ;   <   =   >   ? |
|  @   A   B   C   D   E   F   G |
|  H   I   J   K   L   M   N   O |
|  P   Q   R   S   T   U   V   W |
|  X   Y   Z   [   \   ]   ^   _ |
|  `   a   b   c   d   e   f   g |
|  h   i   j   k   l   m   n   o |
|  p   q   r   s   t   u   v   w |
|  x   y   z   {   |   }   ~     |
|                                |
|     SP stands for Space bar    |
|                                |
|   No, no, no, you MUSTN'T use  |
| ones that are not on the chart!|
==================================

But... look! llizard already did that bit of the job for you! All you
need to do is a quick copy-paste of one of the tables above. Very techy
- not!


> They would like a plain, simple explanation. The simpler, the better.

IMO a plain list of the "good" characters is quite simple.

> Their interest in text-art is for pure entertainment.

That's not a good excuse for giving bad advice, especially not since the
subject is quite simple anyway. You don't need any simplification. You
accused the FAQ of "looking down on" people. Well, you treat people as
if they're not intelligent enough to read a simple list...

> They need basic help, that is easy
> and entertaining to read. That's how you interest people in text art - not by
> confronting them with a set of "rules", and no real how-to advice.

I still don't see the need for something quite simple, and yes, a little
"techy", to be *entertaining*.

>      Many people have read those tutorials. People who read them, like them;

Good! (I just wonder one thing: How many of the people who read them go
on to post pictures containing � or � or � and then get flamed for it?)

> better than your "facks". They write me email, and send me their "art".

How can they be "better" if they give out incorrect information (you're
basically telling me, or any other Swede, to use characters like �, �
and � in my pictures)?

> Some of them, you even know...

And? I communicate in email with people you know. People communicate
with each other. That's part of this whole newsgroup thing...  *shrug*

>      Those things have been asked for, and are posted on art sites that aren't
> ascii sites, at all. The latest being http://www.artcenter.ac/ It's some
> new link exchange, or whatever... Doesn't look like much, to me. Sorry I
> haven't kept the addys of a few better artsites, but there are some
> that have them. Real, live, money-making graphic artists have asked me for
> those things, and thanked me for them, too. And they all damned the "facks".

I don't see how ascii art is any less "real" than any other art. The
fact that somebody earns money making pictures is no guarantee that he
is any better at making pictures than somebody else, who doesn't sell
his pictures for money.

>      When you confront a total newbie with your precious facks, how many come
> back and make text art?

I haven't counted (I've been too busy making pictures of my own).

> How many go make text art on a web page, or in
> emails, or on IRC? Just about none. The way those things are practically
> "thrown" at people with a budding or passing interest in ascii, pretty
> much lets them know this is NOT a friendly newsgroup.

The group is less "strict" today than it was a couple of years ago, back
when I came to the conclusion that this is one of the friendliest groups
out there. I find some of the sugar-sweet back-patting that seems to be
some regulars' main contribution to this group quite sickening. I mean,
it's nice when people applaud good pictures, but some people seem to
have made a career out of it...

> On the other hand,
> I have had remarkable success with answering questions in email to
> people who are interested in text art. They are all pretty unanimous in
> adding that they didn't find the fucking facks of any help, at all. And
> they all like my tutorials. Many of them actually go on and make text art.

Which is fine - until you start throwing out bad advice and causing
people to develop bad habits. Once you figure out that � makes very nice
hair, it's hard to stop using it...

>     Your advice isn't "bad". It's just badly presented, and doesn't take into
> account the fact that most people who are interested in ascii just want to make
> it, and have a little fun. They are pure beginners (at ascii). Maybe your tech
> advice and those facks will be of interest to them, later on, but for beginners,
> having those things sent or reposted to them, is a little like a rude slap in
> the face. All they want is some basic directions - the kind that fits 99% of
> them - and a little basic "how-to", to get them started on their own ideas.

I WISH somebody had shown me to the HTML FAQ *before* I made a complete
mess of my homepage! It took me a YEAR to un-learn and learn better ways
to do things. That's *many* hours' work down the drain. HTML is so
simple, yet when you start making tables of everything, and splitting up
images, and counting pixels, and setting fonts, and then watch the whole
thing fall apart...   *sigh*

I wouldn't consider it "a rude slap in the face". I *really* don't see
where that opinion comes from.

>     Your "not intended to be bad" advice, doesn't interest or promote the
> beginner ascii artist - it discourages him.

It's not supposed to "interest or promote" anything. It's supposed to
give the reader some reliable information. The *pictures* people make
are what's supposed to do the "promoting". I don't see why turning the
FAQ into a series of *cartoons* would automatically make it better.

Also, there's a difference between a FAQ and a tutorial. What you have
written are tutorials. Lots of people have written tutorials that
reflect their style and their techniques. That's fine. For some newbies
that may be a good way to get started. I personally give that kind of
documents a quick look-over, usually followed by a big *yawn*. I started
to read your tutorial out of curiosity (knowing your attitude and
opinion about FAQs...) and it was no exception. The FAQ? I read it from
start to finish and didn't find "ASCII art is compact, a few K, not 20,
50, 100 or more K!" half as boring as "Now, let's put the two separate
lines together, like this....".

> Those "faqs" present people with a
> list of "rules", which come across as if they were some kind of edict, or demand.

And also explanations. The FAQ doesn't just say "do this!". It also
makes an effort to explain *why* you should do things a certain way. In
the end nobody can stop you from making as big a fool of yourself as you
want.

> They are no fun to read.

And?

> They contain no "how-to" demonstrations.

That's what tutorials are for.

> They leave
> even a new enthusiast with a chill. I see no use for the damn things, except for
> the advanced ascii text artist who doesn't need to read them anyway, and even
> he/she/it is bound to be bored by them.

Again: it's not *meant* to be entertaining, any more than a bus time
table is meant to be entertaining. When I read a time table I want
correct information. If the time table fails to mention that on
Christmas Eve buses go after the Saturday table then there's more than
just a slight chance that some people, going by the Friday table, will
miss the buss on Christmas Eve. Fortunately for me, the time table for
the buses in �rebro L�n did have complete and accurate information. Once
I got on the bus I opened the Dilbert magazine I had brought with me,
because that was an appropriate time for some entertainment.

>     If you don't like my tutorials, don't read them.

As a regular of alt.ascii-art I think it would be bad if you were to
promote "just use the letters and symbols on your keyboard" to the
newbies. As for you: stop taking every hint of criticism so bloody
personally. It is a fact that the method you advice people to use is
flawed. Badly flawed! It would be wrong of me *not* to criticise you for
it.

> You may think they are
> "bad", but your opinion merely suffers from a lack of understanding.

I didn't say "they". When I wrote my comment you had only posted one. I
commented on *one* point in that FAQ. I do not suffer from a lack of
understanding of what it means to give newbies the advice to go hunting
randomly on their keyboard. Many Swedish keyboards (but not the type I
use here at school) contain this character  �  . It is easier to find
this particular character on the keyboard than it is to find the similar
ASCII character  '  . You have seen the result here in this newsgroup. I
have seen you comment on exactly this kind of situation, at least twice
in the last couple of days.

> Ascii art is merely entertainment, not some deep, technical pursuit.

Ascii art is "technically" quite simple. Yet people still post pictures
made in Arial, pictures containing tabs, pictures containing other no-no
characters, pictures that are wrapped (Hey! The text part of your
tutorial was badly wrapped at the sending end!). Looking up a character
in one of the tables furhter up in this post is not complicated.
Explaining why using  �  to somebody who has this character *on his
keyboard* (remember, that is what you advice!) is a bad idea is a bit
more complicated, and it wastes everybody's time when it is done in the
newsgroup, over and over and over again.

> People want
> to make it, or look at it, for fun. It's no fun to wade through some techy
> document, and receive a set of "laws" that they "better not break". That
> just turns people off. My tutorials don't turn people off. Look at Peter
> Punk's repost - he says, "This is great!" NO ONE ever said that about those
> fucking facks.

See my reply to your other version of this rant.

> But I hear that, all the time. I'm glad I posted the things
> to aaa, if for no other reason, than to garnish one enthusiastic reply...

YM "get somebody to applaud you in public".

> .... Which is why you chose to flame my tutorial, of course.

Go spend some time at Deja! I have criticised this exact same "advice"
before, when it was suggested by other people. Again, you are taking
things way too personally. Here's some advice to you: Grow a thicker
skin or quit reading/posting to newsgroups.

> I suggest
> you refrain yourself from doing that. Try setting your news reader to
> block my posts, if you can't stay off without correkting me.

I correct you because what you say is wrong. That's what happens in
newsgroups. Live with it!

> Or flame me some
> more, and the result might be that you will wish you had kept your incorrect
> opinions to yourself.

It is not an "opinion" that my Swedish keyboard contains the characters
�����. It is a *fact*. There is nothing "incorrect" about this fact
either. The button in the top left corner of my keyboard has as "small
letter" the character  �  and as "big letter" the character  �. When I
press that button I get the character  �. When I press Shift and that
button I get the character  �. Everything works as it should. The only
thing _incorrect_ here is your opinion that this _fact_ is an "incorrect
opinion" of mine.

>     The choice is yours. I can be very friendly, or not. You are the one
> that determines that.

A threat? WOW! I am sooooooooo scared!   :D:D:D::D:D:D:D::D:D:D:D:D:D:D

> Too bad Pete won't hang around, to keep you entertained.

What "Pete" would this be? Surely not the one and only person I ever
plonked?  *lol*

> Without him, you're just a troll, Veronica.

Sure, I'm a troll sometimes, but not in this group.

> Either behave, or go run new reader/posters
> off some other newsgroup. This one is small enough, without your working to
> make it smaller.

It is not my habit to "run new readers/posters off groups". Also, I
don't see on what you base your accusation that I am "working to make
this group smaller". Please explain.


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