Should IDs be put at the end? (question)

bob...@wwa.com (Bob Allison) writes:

>    I would rather see a post with an ID than without.  It helps to know 
> if it's a request, pic, talk, etc.  But they are in your face at the 
> beginning of the line.
>    How about if we put them at the end (except on long subject linss)?  
> Maybe in (), or not.  It would be there, but be out of the way.  This 
> makes sense if most readers don't always need to look at it.  What do you 
> think?

I quite like them.  It lets me do a quick scan of the post list and decide what
I want to see, instead of having to wade through the whole lot.

I wish some other newsgroups adopted this approach.

Jazz
-- 
888888888P d88b 888888P 88888P              *** *** WARNING *** ***
      d8P d8'`8b   d8P    d8P  This sig contains a self executing, stealth virus
d8   d8P d888888b d8P    d8P                   You may now panic
`88888P d8P    l8b 8888 888888         E-Mail: clh...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk

In article <34vca9$fu...@gagme.wwa.com> clh...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk (Jason Irwin) writes:
>bob...@wwa.com (Bob Allison) writes:
>>    I would rather see a post with an ID than without.  It helps to know 
>> if it's a request, pic, talk, etc.  But they are in your face at the 
>> beginning of the line.
>>    How about if we put them at the end (except on long subject linss)?  
>> Maybe in (), or not.  It would be there, but be out of the way.  This 
>> makes sense if most readers don't always need to look at it.  What do you 
>> think?

>I quite like them.  It lets me do a quick scan of the post list and decide what
>I want to see, instead of having to wade through the whole lot.

>I wish some other newsgroups adopted this approach.

... i'd like to utter something too. I'd like to see IDs which are of fixed 
width and in front of the subject. This makes the IDs being display one below 
the other in a fixed column and thus makes it even able to be processed by a 
machine D (<-blind smily). I mean that if the IDs are tied to the first column 
scanning becomes very easy because you just have to scan downward. But if the 
ID appears to be located at the end of the line then you _ADDITIONALLY_ have 
to scan each line to the end which would only make sense if the lines were all 
of the same length. Imho.

>Jazz
>-- 
>888888888P d88b 888888P 88888P              *** *** WARNING *** ***
>      d8P d8'`8b   d8P    d8P  This sig contains a self executing, stealth virus
>d8   d8P d888888b d8P    d8P                   You may now panic
>`88888P d8P    l8b 8888 888888         E-Mail: clh...@vaxa.strath.ac.uk

... well, i think it's a quite harmless virus. At least my system was not 
infected by your .sig .-)

Yours,



--

                .odbo.
            .od88888888bo.                  Paul Foerster
        .od8888888888888888bo.
    .od888888888888888888888888bo.          pau...@heino.ibh.rwth-aachen.de
 od88888888888888888888888888888888bo
  `~888888888888888888888888888888~'
     `~888888888888888888888888~'|          "Beam me up Scotty, there's no
        `~888888888888888888~'   |              intelligent life down here!"
          |`~888888888888~'|     |
          \   `~888888~'   /     A
           `-_   `~~'   _-'      H
              `--____--'

  I think IDs should be kept at the beginning, so that when you list the
subjects of the currently unread articles, they are all in the same place.
Makes it *much* easier to read, I think.  IMHO, of course.

  -Den
--
..%%%%%%...%%%%%%....%%%%%...%%%%%%...%%%%%%..
..%%.......%%.......%%.........%%.....%%......     a94...@mindlink.bc.ca
..%%%%.....%%%%......%%%%......%%.....%%%%....
..%%.......%%...........%%.....%%.....%%......     Just a simple clown.
..%%.......%%%%%%...%%%%%......%%.....%%%%%%..

In article <351b4i$ee...@gagme.wwa.com> Bob Allison, bob...@wwa.com writes:
>    Originally, I asked, since most people prefer having an ID on a 
> subject line, why not put them at the end to get them out of our 
> collective face?

I *wish* that we could put them in the Keywords header, but most
newsreaders don't display Keywords until you see the article, and then
there's the problem of getting people to use that header...

>    Well, on the groups, and in email, not one person liked the idea.  On 
> some systems the end would get chopped off even if it wasn't on the 
> system of the person who posted it.

I wouldn't mind the identifiers be at the end, but that's because my
favorite newsreader (Nuntius for Macintosh) easily displays Subject lines
that are 60 characters long.  Most newsreaders truncate the Subject line
to far fewer characters than that, though.  In addition, when an article
passes through some machines that are configured wrong, the machine
truncates the Subject line to approximately 25 characters.
 
>    OK, putting them at the end won't work.  So what could be done to keep 
> them, but also make them less annoying?  How about all lower case, in ()?
> I did this post that way as an example.

I agree with Zeus Paleologos <rl3...@netcom.com>, who, elsewhere in this
thread, said that the IDs should be all the same length and capitalized
(LIN,GIF,ANM,COL,3-D,BIN,BIG,RPO,REQ,DIS,Q??,A..,INF,ANC,FAQ--what happened
to PIX? and what's the difference between INF and ANC?) to make it easy to
scan Subject lines.  IMO, putting IDs in parens would be a mistake, as it
just wastes two characters, making the ID even more "in your face."  If I
had my way (If I ran the zoo :-)) IDs would look like 
"Subject: DIS Identifiers".

Identifiers in this group are unique in the sense that they can change
throughout a thread (REQUEST, GIF, LINE), whereas identifiers in
rec.arts.tv.soaps, the canonical example of a labeled newsgroup, don't.
This presents a problem, as some newsreaders thread by Subject rather than
by References, but I don't see any way around that.

On another note, why are so many articles crossposted to a.a-a and r.a.a?
Is there anyone who reads one but not the other? (excepting those who don't
get a.a-a)
--
Matt Messina
mes...@umich.edu

ObAscii: Lower 48 by Jorn Barger
         ,__                                                  _,
      \~\|  ~~---___              ,                          | \
       |      / |   ~~~~~~~|~~~~~| ~~---,                  _/,  >
      /~-_--__| |          |     \     / ~\~~/          /~| ||,'
      |       /  \         |------|   {    / /~)     __-' ',|_\,
     /       |    |~~~~~~~~|      \    \   | | '~\  |_____,|~,-'
     |~~--__ |    |        |____  |~~~~~|--| |__ /_-'     {,~
     |   |  ~~~|~~|        |    ~~\     /  `-' |`~ |~_____{/
     |   |     |  '---------,      \----|   |  |  ,' ~/~\,|`
     ',  \     |    |       |~~~~~~~|    \  | ,'~~\  /    |
      |   \    |    |       |       |     \_-~    /`~___--\
      ',   \  ,-----|-------+-------'_____/__----~~/      /
       '_   '\|     |      |~~~|     |    |      _/-,~~-,/
         \    |     |      |   |_    |    /~~|~~\    \,/
          ~~~-'     |      |     `~~~\___|   |   |    /
              '-,_  | _____|          |  /   | ,-'---~\
                  `~'~  \             |  '--,~~~~-~~,  \
                         \/~\      /~~~`---`         |  \
                             \    /                   \  |
                              \  |                     '\'
                               `~'              -jorn

In Matt Messina <mes...@umich.edu> writes:
>Subject: Talk: IDs
[huge parts of ID-talk with Bob deleted]
>Identifiers in this group are unique in the sense that they can change
>throughout a thread (REQUEST, GIF, LINE), whereas identifiers in
>rec.arts.tv.soaps, the canonical example of a labeled newsgroup, don't.
>This presents a problem, as some newsreaders thread by Subject rather than
>by References, but I don't see any way around that.

... could you please tell me what a "labeled" newgroup is? I just don't 
know.

Thanx,



--

                .odbo.
            .od88888888bo.                  Paul Foerster
        .od8888888888888888bo.
    .od888888888888888888888888bo.          pau...@heino.ibh.rwth-aachen.de
 od88888888888888888888888888888888bo
  `~888888888888888888888888888888~'
     `~888888888888888888888888~'|          "Beam me up Scotty, there's no
        `~888888888888888888~'   |              intelligent life down here!"
          |`~888888888888~'|     |
          \   `~888888~'   /     A
           `-_   `~~'   _-'      H
              `--____--'

Paul Foerster:
>... could you please tell me what a "labeled" newgroup is?

a newsgroup where articles are tagged with IDs in the Subject line.

rec.arts.tv.soaps has short IDs for the various soap operas, to make
it easy for anyone to selectively read or ignore threads about
particular soaps.

This is a little different than in rec.arts.ascii, because the IDs
refer to the topic of the article (a particular soap opera), not the
substance of the article (like Question or Answer).  Topic rarely
changes within a thread, but substance often does.  Well, it depends
on the group..

To accomodate newsreaders that thread by Subject, maybe put the IDs at
the end?  Since this is a moderated group and all the articles come
from a single source, you shouldn't get truncated subjects unless your
local news software does the truncation.

I thought I wouldn't like IDs at the end, but I did a trial
reformatting of rec.arts.ascii, and I've decided I don't really care,
as long as the IDs are easy to spot.

Here's a slice of recent subjects, sorted by subject:

D 1693: [ 99:Bob Allison     ] Info: Code to use Figlet within Emacs
D 1695: [  9:Dennis Monbourqu] LINE: New .sig... I like the border <shrug>
D 1699: [331:Mike Jittlov    ] Line: Ascii of Cosmic Cutie....
D 1698: [ 16:Technowonk +p   ] Line: Cheque...please :D
D 1701: [ 10:Edmund Hon      ] Line: Sidewinder
D 1706: [ 16:Grace Atwood (N.] REQUEST: Cats or members of the feline family...
D 1696: [ 17:Bob Allison     ] Re: Talk: Emacs code
D 1704: [ 11:Stefan Gromoll  ] Request: Anyone have a picture of a monkey?
D 1703: [ 18:YourNameHere    ] Request: Sig Help, por favor?
D 1697: [ 26:William         ] Talk: Emacs
D 1700: [ 50:Brian Patrick Le] Talk: Emacs
D 1702: [ 32:Bob Allison     ] Talk: Emacs
D 1705: [ 33:Tim Gray        ] Talk: Emacs
D 1692: [ 43:Grant Severn    ] Talk: GIF->ASCII: Is it Art?
D 1691: [ 15:Bram Cohen      ] Talk: What is Emacs?
D 1694: [ 20:Bjorn Svartengre] Talk: What is Emacs?

Here's the same, using trailing tags:

D 1704: [ 11:Stefan Gromoll  ] Anyone have a picture of a monkey? (REQUEST)
D 1699: [331:Mike Jittlov    ] Ascii of Cosmic Cutie.... (LINE)
D 1706: [ 16:Grace Atwood (N.] Cats or members of the feline family... (REQUEST)
D 1698: [ 16:Technowonk +p   ] Cheque...please :D (LINE)
D 1693: [ 99:Bob Allison     ] Code to use Figlet within Emacs (INFO)
D 1697: [ 26:William         ] Emacs (TALK)
D 1700: [ 50:Brian Patrick Le] Emacs (TALK)
D 1702: [ 32:Bob Allison     ] Emacs (TALK)
D 1705: [ 33:Tim Gray        ] Emacs (TALK)
D 1692: [ 43:Grant Severn    ] GIF->ASCII: Is it Art? (TALK)
D 1695: [  9:Dennis Monbourqu] New .sig... I like the border <shrug> (LINE)
D 1696: [ 17:Bob Allison     ] Re: Emacs code (TALK)
D 1701: [ 10:Edmund Hon      ] Sidewinder (LINE)
D 1703: [ 18:YourNameHere    ] Sig Help, por favor? (REQUEST)
D 1691: [ 15:Bram Cohen      ] What is Emacs? (TALK)
D 1694: [ 20:Bjorn Svartengre] What is Emacs? (TALK)

Here's the same, using leading, fixed-width tags:

D 1693: [ 99:Bob Allison     ] info  Code to use Figlet within Emacs
D 1699: [331:Mike Jittlov    ] line  Ascii of Cosmic Cutie....
D 1698: [ 16:Technowonk +p   ] line  Cheque...please :D
D 1695: [  9:Dennis Monbourqu] line  New .sig... I like the border <shrug>
D 1701: [ 10:Edmund Hon      ] line  Sidewinder
D 1704: [ 11:Stefan Gromoll  ] req   Anyone have a picture of a monkey?
D 1706: [ 16:Grace Atwood (N.] req   Cats or members of the feline family...
D 1703: [ 18:YourNameHere    ] req   Sig Help, por favor?
D 1697: [ 26:William         ] talk  Emacs
D 1700: [ 50:Brian Patrick Le] talk  Emacs
D 1702: [ 32:Bob Allison     ] talk  Emacs
D 1705: [ 33:Tim Gray        ] talk  Emacs
D 1692: [ 43:Grant Severn    ] talk  GIF->ASCII: Is it Art?
D 1696: [ 17:Bob Allison     ] talk  Re: Emacs code
D 1691: [ 15:Bram Cohen      ] talk  What is Emacs?
D 1694: [ 20:Bjorn Svartengre] talk  What is Emacs?

Fixed-width tags are nice, but they don't work if your newsreader uses
a proportional font.  Well, it doesn't look so bad if you set it off
with parentheses..

D 1693: [ 99:Bob Allison     ] (info) Code to use Figlet within Emacs
D 1699: [331:Mike Jittlov    ] (line) Ascii of Cosmic Cutie....
D 1698: [ 16:Technowonk +p   ] (line) Cheque...please :D
D 1695: [  9:Dennis Monbourqu] (line) New .sig... I like the border <shrug>
D 1701: [ 10:Edmund Hon      ] (line) Sidewinder
D 1704: [ 11:Stefan Gromoll  ] (req ) Anyone have a picture of a monkey?
D 1706: [ 16:Grace Atwood (N.] (req ) Cats or members of the feline family...
D 1703: [ 18:YourNameHere    ] (req ) Sig Help, por favor?
D 1697: [ 26:William         ] (talk) Emacs
D 1700: [ 50:Brian Patrick Le] (talk) Emacs
D 1702: [ 32:Bob Allison     ] (talk) Emacs
D 1705: [ 33:Tim Gray        ] (talk) Emacs
D 1692: [ 43:Grant Severn    ] (talk) GIF->ASCII: Is it Art?
D 1696: [ 17:Bob Allison     ] (talk) Re: Emacs code
D 1691: [ 15:Bram Cohen      ] (talk) What is Emacs?
D 1694: [ 20:Bjorn Svartengre] (talk) What is Emacs?

Hmm.  Count me as a vote for fixed-width, leading tags.  But it's not
really that important to me.  (which is why I spent all this time
playing with it :)
--