Re: moderation-YUK

On Fri, 20 May 1994 04:37:15 -0400, Andre Beskrowni wrote:
> Hi everyone:

Hi!

> All I keep hearing is that moderation is good because we won't have to
> see the same requests over and over, blah, blah, blah.  

All I keep hearing is that moderation is evil because there is the slight 
possibility that maybe perhaps someone's post might not make it on the 
group, or whatever, blah, blah, blah.

> Something everyone should keep in mind though (and maybe some one has
> already said this since I don't read EVERY post on this issue) is that
> everyone has had an opportunity to voice their opinions about where the
> future of this newsgroup should be: alt or rec.  

Alt OR Rec?  Alt OR Rec??  No one is saying Alt OR Rec.  NO ONE WILL BE 
DELETING ALT.ASCII-ART JUST TO MAKE ROOM FOR REC.ASCII-ART.  Jesus.  You 
people who have such a problem with moderation just stick to a.a-a.

> First of all, it could easily be claimed (by a moderator for instance)
> that the same thing is being said over and over again.  "Fine," you
> might say, "the same thing _is_ being said over and over again and this
> is a prime example of why moderation is good."  This is totally wrong! 
> The reason there are so many posts on this issue is because so many
> people feel so strongly about it.  This issue very important.  

Uh, what?  You lost me.  Scarecrow won't just delete a discussion because 
it is getting repetitive.  The only posts that he would want redirected 
are the ones that are a) off topic (make money fast!  Green card lotto) 
and b) so common that there are faqs and files that would assist (may I 
have a faq?  I need an ascii of "I Love You/Happy/Birthday/Calvin&Hobbes/ 
Barney/etc.etc.etc." that we see every damned day.  A moderater like 
scarecrow would be doing EVERYONE a service, by e-mailing the person who 
made that request DIRECTLY with a pre-made file of those more common 
requested pics and keeping them off the group.  Scarecrow simply wants to 
perform a service, not CENSOR anybody.  The only people I could 
understand him censoring is people like you who'd probably get on there 
and bitch because it's moderated.  ;>

BTW, I'm not so sure "so many" people feel the way you do.  Just seems to 
be an anonymous guy and Colin -- who has started a one-man war with the 
idea. 

> Do you
> really want to risk the possibility that you might not be able to speak
> up on issues like this?  

Not AFTER the point.  If the votes are in, a moderated group is wanted 
and made, NO, I wouldn't want to see a bunch of posts complaining after 
the fact.

> It's not necessarily a bad thing that there
> have been so many posts saying the basically the same thing.  It gives
> everyone who reads this newsgroup a feeling for how everyone else feels.
>  Under moderation, we might have only seen half of these posts, or maybe
> none at all.  It would be impossible to gauge your opinion in relation
> to everyone else's.  I personally don't want my agenda set for me.  I
> want to know my what everyone else's feelings are.  Discussion is a good
> thing, especially for an arts forum.  I don't think anyone would want
> their voice restricted due to a moderator's whim.  

Well, honestly, you'll just have to deal with it.  This isn't an anarchy 
with no order.  You can't simply talk about whatever you want, moderator 
or no.  Discussion is a good thing, especially for an arts forum, but 
ONLY if the discussion is about art.  Discussions about government 
politics is a BAD thing, especially for an arts forum.  Take it somewhere 
else, I don't want to see it -- regardless if the fact that someone wants 
to say it.  It doesn't belong.

> The second conflict that all this discussion would have with a moderated
> newsgroup is the amount of attention it has taken from the real purpose
> of this newsgroup, which one would assume would be to view, distribute,
> promote, etc., ascii-art.  Issues like this could easily be snuffed out
> because of their supposed irrelevance.  

Your first sentence made absolutely no sense to me.  You're saying you 
don't want a moderated group because it would keep you from being able to 
discuss a moderated news group??  Who cares.  If I understand your 
sentence right, you mean it might be ditched because it's not ascii art.  
Well, I doubt it, but even if it were, it'd be right.  Come on, it's not 
as if you can't e-mail.  This is SUPPOSED to be ascii-art.  This crap 
we're talking about IS off topic, but it DOES affect the channel, so it's 
ok.  I'm sure Scarecrow agrees.

> But I think that just by looking
> at the response that this issue has generated illustrates that most of
> us don't see this as an irrelevant issue.  

Check the names of all these posts and you'll find most of them generated 
by one person -- Colin.  The pro-r.a-a people seem to have more widespread 
approval, but Colin is quite avid in his attacks.  I'm not saying that 
there aren't those who disagree, I'm just saying that one person's 
numerous posts shouldn't be mistaken for "most of us."

> However in a moderated
> newsgroup, this is not for us to decide.  

What?  In moderated news groups it's not for us to decide if we want 
moderated news groups???  Well, I think I see what you're trying to say.  
You're being justifiably paranoid.  But, I think Scarecrow has enough 
sense to know that a topic that isn't ON-topic but affects the channel 
should be let through.  I don't see him putting much effort into 
censorship -- it'd be too much work, and no fun, and Scarecrow is a fun 
guy. 

> Here, if we think some topic
> merits discussion, we discuss it.  In rec groups, we might want to bring
> up an item for discussion only to find that we aren't allowed because we
> are not keeping to the strict bounds that might be imposed by a
> moderator.  

The only bounds that would/should be imposed are those set in the charter 
and repeatedly mentioned here.  *sigh*

> How, then, would we be able to propose changes to the
> structure of a group?  What if things were being run poorly and we
> wanted to address those problems?  

If, god forbid, this happened, which I don't think it would, there's 
still e-mail!  Jesus, come on, people.  This isn't some parent 
restricting your social life.  E-mail the others in the group, and figure 
out what to do.

> I think that is putting a lot of
> faith in one human being.

"A lot of faith"?  Uhh, it's just a newsgroup.  I'm not letting him hold 
the rope as I climb down a cliff.  However, to moderate r.a-a, yes I do 
have faith in Bob Allison.  I think it says a lot about HIS character.

> Rec groups often forbid this kind of
> discussion, why would anyone want that?  

Because it's off topic?  Because as long as I'm getting all the ascii-art 
I want then it's doing its job?

> Just to not have to deal with
> seeing repeated requests?  Geez, just skip 'em.  No one is making you
> read them.

No, but repeat requests from different people can get ignored.  5 guys on 
the left asking for a pic of Calvin and Hobbes may get answered, but the 
2 guys on the right who also asked might have been missed in the numerous 
posts.

> These two problems are also accompanied by the strain that this puts on
> the moderator.  He has to take the time to read everything, and make
> decisions about their fate.  This is not a small task, especially with
> the number of posts that appear here daily.  It's definitely a
> responsibility that one could tire of very quickly.   I don't want to
> get too much into this topic though since it's been done.

Yes, and that's why I don't see Bob doing much in the matter of reading 
everything and making some weighty decision for every one.

> All I'm saying is that this IS NOT a "win-win" situation.  True, things
> could work out fine, but I'd rather not chance it.  I'd rather not take
> the chance that it could end up really sucking and undermining the
> promotion of ascii-art due to the potential strictness of moderation.

It may be win-win, it may be lose-lose.  If it's win-win, GREAT!  If not, 
just stick with a.a-a.  E-mail others and see if you want something 
done.  Just deal with it.  You people are just arguing against the 
CONCEPT of a moderator.

> By the way, before you even think it, these opinions have nothing to due
> with Scarecrow's character.  I believe that he is fully capable of doing
> the job.  I say this even though I don't know the guy at all.  

I know, because you are arguing against a concept.  It's like arguing 
with your roommate because he wants to have control over his own bedroom 
because you think it is "territorial."  Ok, so I'm bad with analogies.

> I honestly believe that he wants to moderate the proposed rec group
> because he loves ascii-art and wants do what he can to promote it.  (I
> don't buy the line about self-promotion.)  Nevertheless, he going to be
> subjected to a hell of a lot of complaints about what gets posted and
> what doesn't get posted, and these are going to make some not-so-easy
> decisons even harder for him.  

I doubt it.  You admitted to not knowing him.  Why not ASK him how he'd 
react?  He strikes me as the type that would just back off and give freer 
rein.

> I really encourage you to think about how much of a voice you'll have
> under moderation.  You may feel secure, but why?  You are putting
> yourself at risk of losing your voice completely.  Moderation sucks. 

Blind dislike of an abstract concept sucks, but is perhaps justifiable.  
Any problem with giving something/somebody a CHANCE?

> It's about more than cutting down on repeated requests.  

Ask Scarecrow what HE thinks it's about, rather than you just guess what 
YOU think he thinks it's about.

> Vote for a free
> ascii-arts group.

Uhhh, *pssst*, I don't know if you've noticed, but, look around you...

YOU'RE IN ONE.

> (Sorry for being so long-winded.)

S'okay!  So am I!  :)


                    />
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