Re: VOTING: rec.arts.ascii (MODERATED)

>From: Col...@equinox.gen.nz (Colin Douthwaite)

>First let me say that I am pleased you have entered the public 
>debate and regret that you did not do so much earlier when the RFD 
>( Request for Discussion ) was taking place and before this late 
>stage in the voting proceedings.

Some of us would rather be drawing than debating...


>THE BIG APPEAL OF ALT.ASCII-ART:
>- Freedom for all comers.

Strange, I thought all groups had that characteristic.

>- Lots of pictures.

True, many of which are repeats though.

>- Lots of requests :-)

Yes, that could be a viewed as a drawback though, not an appeal!

>- Great enjoyment for many users ( regrettably not all ).

So be it.  There is no way to please everybody anyway.

>- The potential to become one of the top ten groups. 

If I understand the group hierarchies correctly, the propagation of alt
groups is the limiting factor of that "potential".  That is why a rec group
is being considered as the next step in the propagation of ASCII art.


>Sure. You're meaning is clear enough. It is your understanding of the 
>true nature of requests that is flawed. 

How easy it is to blame the other side.

>Frankly, I despair of ever being able to get this message across to 
>the anti-request brigade. Here we go for the umpteenth time:
     ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

That is a very negative opinion.  You seem to dismiss entirely the fact 
that several people that are not in your camp, care just as much about
ASCII art as you do (and some maybe even more so).

You seem to have shifted gears from "let's discuss the pros and cons of
rec.arts.ascii" to "let's attack those that don't think like me by using
subtle associations".  I just hope that people will be smart enough to see
through your ploys.

>To the requester each and every request is _new_ and quite normal. 

I agree.  No one has ever argued against that fact though.

>Popular subjects are bound to be requested frequently but by 
>_ENTIRELY DIFFERENT PEOPLE_ who simply have not seen all the other 
>requests.  

I agree.  Again, no one ever said that "THE SAME PEOPLE KEEP REQUESTING
THE SAME PICTURES!"  I discovered the validity of your above two statements
in my first two weeks of browsing through a.a-a in early December last
year.  You are bringing nothing new to the table.

The question still remains:  why is it good for the group to have about 100 
duplicated requests a month (just a guess) for particular pictures and 100
replies to those requests when ALL THE WORLD sees both every time?  There has
to be a better way to deal with satisfying the needs of the requesters while
at the same time minimizing the waste.  Perhaps rec.arts.ascii (as proposed)
is not the best solution, but it is at least trying to address the problem.


>Newcomers are arriving in the group continuously and at a great rate.

That is probably due to the reputation of the art displayed here, not
the requests!


>> It's only lately that they have - quite literally - taken over the 
>>  group.  
>
>I consider that nonsense - I've been reading this group since about 
>late September 1993 - as soon as I heard about it - and I simply do 
>not agree with you - so there !  :-) :-)

The man is allowed an opinion and so are you.  That doesn't mean you're
right and he's wrong or that he's right and you're wrong.  Somehow I'm
under the impression that you would have disagreed no matter what the
comment had been.  :-)


>If those people who can produce original art are sulking and 
>unwilling to contribute to alt.ascii-art because of requests then it 
>is they themselves who are killing the "original art" postings.  

Wait a second.  Another misrepresentation:  no one ever said "REDUCE THE
AMOUNT OF REQUESTS IN THIS GROUP OR I WILL STOP POSTING HERE".  As far as
I understand, rec.arts.ascii was proposed as a means to increase the access
to ASCII art and at the same time to help conserve bandwidth and save people
time and money by managing waste.  If rec.arts.ascii fails, I will continue
to post to alt.ascii-art unless of course KING DOUTHWAITE manages to
convince people that I was a traitor and therefore that I should not be
allowed to post here any more.  :-)


>C'mon Row, that's kindergarten stuff - " It's my ball and if you 
>don't play to my rules I'm taking my ball away. "
>
>This newsgroup is alt.ascii-art not alt.ascii-original-art or 
>alt.ascii-prima donnas.

These personal attacks serve no purpose other than to try to inflame the
perceived enemies.


>> I used to collect the stuff from here, and it's got to the point 
>> now where I hardly save anything. 
>
>I have to agree that that is rather sad to hear. At the same time it 
>also is not very charitable reflection on all the stuff that has 
>been and continues to be posted here. It is not by any means rubbish 
>and many others have praised the content of alt.ascii-art.  

I must agree with Row on this one.  I use to be able to save one post out
of every five back in January.  Now a days I save about 5 posts per 100.
Please note that Row did not say "all pictures posted here are crap" but
rather "there is far less pictures than there use to be".  Who wants to
collect requests anyway?

There has indeed been several praises of a.a-a, but I do not recall having
seen even one that said "oh, I love all the requests I see in here."


>If you have not been earning admiration and accolades it may be that 
>you have not posted much for some time, whether by design or 
>circumstance I cannot know.

Here we go again: another attempt at trying to inflame Row.  You seem to be
inventing stuff Colin:  where did Row say something like "I hate this group
now, because no one seems to care whenever I post a picture?"


>> Your quite free to stick around a.a-a and have it as a request for 
>> ascii pictures.
>
>That's big of you to grant me that freedom.

I don't get it!  You complain that people are attempting to reduce the
amount of requests, yet when someone offers an alternative that will let
you see all the requests, you bitch about it!  Why not make suggestions to
modify the charter for rec.arts.ascii so that its goals are met in ways
that you can agree with instead of whining in public?  So far, you have
only muddled the issues instead of bringing forth constructive criticism.


>Is it also a concession to be allowed a NO vote ? - the number of 
>times I have been asked to vote yes or not vote NO is astounding - 
>and I have seen the same thing happen to other people. It is a 
>wonder that a NO vote is even being permitted on this issue.

What is that suppose to mean?  We are an "anti-NO brigade" I suppose?
Stick to the topic will you.  No one is preventing you to vote the way
you want or to express your opinion.  Stop hurling around false
accusations.


>> Just think, if r.a.a *did* pass, then you could have the best of 
>> both worlds - an unmoderated group for endless requests and 
>> reports, and a moderated group devoted to ascii art itself.  
>
>I think that sort of attitude is simply unworthy of you and really 
>quite insulting to other folks who may not equal your artistic 
>talent. It is very sad that that is how you see things, but that's 
>the way of it I guess.

Again!  You complain that requests will be cut, yet you also complain if
provisions are made so that you are allowed to see them all!  BTW, who ever
gave you the right to represent the "other folks".  Let them state their
own opinion.

[Other low blows deleted]

>> PS. No flame intended. Just trying to clear up some things.
>
>No flame taken. You have every right to put express your views - 
>make the most of it in this free unmoderated newsgroup  :-) :-)

You might not have taken it as a flame, but you certainly made several
comments that appear to have been intended to create more than just little
sparks.  It is really deplorable to see an avid ASCII lover like yourself
resort to manipulative techniques to distort the words of other ASCII lovers.
Sorry, but that does not earn you any points in my book.

-- 
Normand Veilleux                As a "long term" contributing artist to
nve...@emr1.emr.ca            alt.ascii-art, I hereby declare that
----------------------------    rec.arts.ascii (MODERATED) has my support.