Re: So, You Want To Make Text Art?

Veronica Karlsson <aci...@earthling.net> wrote in message news:387...@earthling.net...
> "what ASCII stands for" is not the same thing as "what kinds of
> keyboards people reading your tutorials are using". There may be some
> similarity between the two for people using American keyboards, but
> that's no excuse for confusing people who happen to come from other
> countries than you.

Well, if they're like you - fuck 'em. On the other hand, I don't think
you've read most of this thread. I know you are overjoyed any time I
make a post, and can't wait to read it, and although I'm flattered, I
think it most rude of you not to see what others have to say, too. But
you doan care 'bout the "publik", do you? Only about getting a good
fuss going, so you'll have something to do.



> Please, show some statistics. So far all you've done is hint that "90%"
> (or is it "99%"?) and now "most ALL" of the computer users in the world
> use American keyboards.


Why don't you go look up the stats? Others on this thread, from other
nations, seem to think my guesstimate isn't too far off. Even if it is
a little off, so what? I'll change it to 95% or 88%, as I wish. It's
not too far off the real thing, any way you want to put it.



> Yes, sure, but what kinds of keyboards do they use? Don't you think
> somebody in Spain wants to write in Spanish to his friends? To do that
> comfortably he needs a Spanish keyboard:
>
> http://www.fingertipsoft.com/kbd/spanish.gif
>
> which contains such characters as   ����
>
> Do you think he's going to get a new keyboard (which is inferior to his
> needs) before reading your tutorial?


I asked some Spanish folks I know... Only got two replies, so far. They
got standard keyboards.



>
> If you mention a statistic, either you can back it up or people can
> assume that you are simply lying and inventing numbers that suit your
> purposes. How can you, or anybody else, know it's accurate if it can't
> be checked? Please, cite your references regarding this "statistic".

I don't have to back up anything. You're the one with the non-standard
keyboard, who is trembling that someone might post an umlaut here. You
worry about it. But if it makes you feel any better, the last stat I
did hear, put over 90% of the home internet users here, in the USA.
That came off the TeeVee; PBS.



> Bob Allison's FAQ has something quite similar to that, yes.
> Unfortunately, the wording in that FAQ is "Standard ASCII art is made
> with characters, such as:". I read the "such as" part as a suggestion
> that there may be other suitable characters as well.

At least Bob produced some hobby information. You just seem to produce
noise and take up bandwidth. In real life, I bet you never shut your mouth,
unless asleep. If you couldn't figure out what he was saying, then maybe
you should go back to taking more English classes.



> I definitely agree that simple answers are better than complicated ones.
> I do not agree that an entertaining but incorrect answer is better than
> one that is boring but correct.

No, you never agree with anything. If you did, you wouldn't have anything
to do. And as far as text art goes, it's ALL entertainment. Breaking that
law, and turning it into something boring is the crime. Go bore people
with correct answers, on your chat page, you criminal.


> If I have trouble reading a page that I find interesting (or think I
> might find interesting if I didn't have trouble reading it) I may
> sometimes do that.

Oh, a MUCH paler admission, than the one you have previously given me,
which made me ask you "Why do you do that?". The truth is, you do that
a LOT - isn't it? You read people's little homepages, and write them
email about their html mistakes. People who probably don't give a hoot
about HTML, and used a WYSIYG editor to make it. Then along comes Veronica,
a total stranger to them, who drops them a flame in the email, about all
their HTML errors. And you know what they think? They think you're a nut.
Which would be right.

Now you've went and let all AAA know it, too.

Yep; only a total whizwhack would go around reading source code on
strangers' homepages, looking for errors, and sending them critical
emails about it, for ENTERTAINMENT. Anyone disagree?

... I thought not.



>               That's not what you're talking about here though. The
> rest of the group don't know about the discussion between you and me
> where I had found a problem on one of your pages and wrote to you and
> told you how to fix it (just as I had previously told you about all
> sorts of HTML related things). At that time I still thought of you a bit
> the way a teacher thinks about a student (since I did get you started
> with that site). The result? Page after page of insults from you!

No, you sent me a rude email, bruhahah'ing about a mistake on a temporary
page I had up. I wrote back and told you that was rude, and explained to
you why your email would have offended anyone who received such, and asked
you not to send any more rude letters to me, if you wanted to correspond
with me. You merely contended it was okay for you to be rude, and that I
should be friends with you, anyway. Rudely, I might add. Well, I replied
to you in kind, but later, I sent you an appology, saying I felt I was
too harsh on you. You see, I'm a good guy, and you're a kotex.

Anyway, you couldn't take it, and stayed away from AAA for a long time.
Too bad it wasn't permanent, if you are going to act like this.

Oh, and your bitch about my temp page? I want everyone to KNOW about THIS:
Your bitch was it would be UNREADABLE, to anyone who visited the page,
who had their browser set to a LIME GREEN background setting.

No shit, folks. That was her problem with it. Now, is that nutty, or
am I just being stubborn?

Oh, I went ahead and made the suggested "change" she wanted me to,
anyway. It didn't stop her from continuing to tell me how wonderful
a thing it was, for her to flame me about that in email.

Maybe you kept all the emails, Veronica... Why don't you post 'em?

And as for "starting that webpage for me", I didn't ask you to. You
did it, all on your own. I used to consider it a mark of honor, that
I DIDN'T keep a webpage. And I knew when you presented it to me, that
you would some day come around, announcing to the world that YOU GOT
ME STARTED, and try to glean what CREDIT you could from that. Hell, if
you remember correctly, when you first told me about that page, I told
you I didn't want it. Only after I'd seen all the work that you had done,
putting it up, did I feel guilty and say I would work on it. And I might
remind you that I've had two crummy pages, in the past. I grew bored
with both of them, and let the things go.

I'll also point out, miss expert, you didn't know shit about a CSS
page, until I asked you more than once, about the things. You went to
work on researching that, when you felt your training had failed you.
And you did a pretty good job of learning it, too. I'd say you're
probably pretty good at CSS, now. Congratulations.




> You keep referring to anonymous people you have talked to in email. I'll
> do the same and mention that at least one person (right now I can think
> of two specific people, both of which like to draw very tiny pictures)
> has told me to stop responding to you - because discussing things with
> you is just one big waste of time. After the HTML error incident I
> realised that they are right, and that's why I chose to respond in the
> group rather than in email.

You should take their advice. I know the only two people who would write
you, anyway. They're not bad folks, and they're giving you good guidance.
You are a blockhead for not taking it.




> And they do, but people tend to run out of patience when they see the
> fifteenth-or-so such post from the same person. If that person then goes
> back to your tutorial and sees that you say that he is doing the right
> thing... Don't you think one possile logical conclusion for a person in
> that situation can be that you are right and the people telling him to
> do something else are wrong and then ignore the corrections and go on
> posting as before?


I don't know of anyone who has kept posting non-standard characters 15
times. I am AMAZED it seems to have taken you so long to get it right,
in your "early days", however. From the number of pictures you say you
posted, that were all full of non-standards, all I can say is it sure
takes you a loonngg time to listen to folks who are trying to tell you
something right. You sure do seem to only learn, at length.

And people are supposed to refer to those things, to get a start in text
art. Then they're supposed to post, here, or do whatever they want
with their pictures. The majority of folks who read that thing, won't
post extendeds. If anyone does, that is easily correctable... Unless
they're really thick-headed, like a little student in Sweden I have
in mind...



> It seems that these "professionals" are newbies at making ascii art.
> What about people who are professionals at something computer related,
> do you give their opinions as much weight? (After all, they know
> *exactly* what goes on "under the hood" in a computer...)


Last I heard, you couldn't GET a job in the computer business, anywhere,
while I see total amateurs (from this newsgroup, even), who get computer-
related jobs. Is this because you don't know shit, besides a little HTML,
or because no employer can stand your arrogant, meatball ways?

I employ folks, myself, you know. I don't hire people of your temperament.

I hope, though, that you do have a job, now. I hope you took my advice,
and got on at the chocolate factory. Last time we talked about that,
you said it was a "nice dream".

Well... Since your address hasn't changed, I guess you've still found
ways to stay on at school. At least you can eat in the cafeteria.


> You have high expectations! One fairly large picture a day isn't enough
> for you? OK, I'm back to a more normal pace now, but still...

You're dreaming, again. Snnrf, Snnrf. You've made a little under 500
posts to this newsgroup, in the years you've trolled here. Most of
them look like flames and corrections, to me. Or are you also counting
your "Chatfiles"?

... Maybe we should get some folks from IRC to start posting their
logs, or whatever they call them.




> 1. Have somebody explain to you what an analogy is and how
>    it works.
>
> 2. I have sent URLs to the FAQ to many people who have
>    stayed, so your claim that showing somebody the FAQ
>    is a sure way to drive him off is not true. I have
>    received enough "thank you for the information" emails
>    to know that my method works very well.


Please name all these people. I KNOW you are not discrete enough to
mind doing that. Let them come forward, and apply suction to you.





> If it says "don't do this" it also explains why. It's warning you not to
> do things that are known to cause people to get flamed in this
> newsgroup. What's wrong with *that*? Also, you may have an endless
> amount of time to spend making name signs for every newbie, but I know I
> don't. I also know that most such signs can be made quite easily with
> Figlet. What's wrong with saying that straight out in the FAQ?


WARNING - that implies a threat. People wanting to enjoy themselves
don't like to be warned and threatened. It's not the information in
the faqs, it's the fact (as others have pointed out) that their tone
is too often condescending and threatening. Not that you'd notice,
I'm sure. The fact that they are boring and unhelpful about the main
question people really have - "How do I make a picture" - is beside
the point.

As to making signs for people, yes, I do a few. Others also do.
That's our business. I also tell them to get figlet, or check
a figlet web utility.

You say "newbie" as if it was a dirty word. Why is that?
Probably because you like to flame them, as you have said
before. Just for fun. Just because they've posted a request
or made a mistake. You don't offer them advice in an encouraging
manner - you flame them.




> 1. Again, look up that analogy thing.
>
> 2. "ascii art time" is certainly an appropriate time for
>    entertainment. "Reading up on what is appropriate in a
>    specific newsgroup time" is a time for correct
>    information. If you can come up with a good way to
>    combine the two, fine. If you can't, chose the correct
>    but boring version before the entertaining but incorrect
>    one.

-> I <- never "read up" on what was "appropriate" for this
newsgroup. If it was REQUIRED, I doubt I would ever have
posted a thing. If given a choice, anyone wanting to have
fun would NOT read that faq you so dearly love. For one
thing, it just doesn't quite address the main question.
My little tutorials attempt to be entertaining, and do
answer that question. Read what others have said.






> Your suggested method for finding out if a character is good to use for
> ascii art (i.e. checking if one can find it on one's keyboard) obviously
> does not work for everybody.

I presume you mean  YOU, when you say "everybody". Sorry, I didn't tailor
that to YOU. Just how many non-standard characters do you have, on your
keyboard? Well, if someone else with a keyboard like yours starts posting
here (unlikely, but possible), and they learned all about ascii from
those tutorials, then I think I, or someone else, can possibly point out
to them that they have made a mistake, which they can easily correct.

At least, if they did read those things, and did decide to try their
hand at text art, the things accomplished their purpose - to demonstrate
and show them how to get started in making text art. Whatever other
assistance they may require, can come later. If I the content of one
of the FACKS into the things, they would probably be bored, and never
try text art. Or offended, and never try text art.



> The part I underlined here, the words "at the sending end", means that
> it was you who did the wrapping, not me.

I didn't wrap on my newsreader. Your newsreader is the one too narrow.
Like it or not, most people reading this newsgroup use the dreaded OE5.
I don't much like it, myself, but it does allow me to post wider pix,
and most people don't complain. If they have trouble with them, they
either edit the pix themselves, go to the next, or they can post or
write to me to email them some other format, so they can view it.





> The above mess was also wrapped by you, not me (I have corrected it for
> you in the rest of the post). Apparently I have more control over my
> newsreader than you have over yours.

I'm glad your newsreader will adjust to see my wider posts. I'll probably
make more of them, and am flattered you go out of your way in your desire
to read them.




> Yup! Sure is better than email. This way everybody can see the whole
> discussion and draw their own conclusions. Do you really think re-using
> the same lame pictures again, for the n'th time, and adding little
> sarcastic comments everywhere is going to make you look any better?


I don't need to look better. You're the troll, here. And I think most
folks have already drawn their own conclusion. And it's that you're a
troll.

So sorry you don't like my Martians. Maybe I should repost "email", so
everyone can see what I mailed to you, to let you know I didn't want to
be your little cyber-sugar-daddy. The one I had posted here, had the name
edited. I should post it again, as I emailed it to you.




> No, I mention my Swedish keyboard as an example. There are others, as
> you will see if you try to search for e.g. "international keyboards" in
> some search engine (I got 818 hits in Alta Vista for that particular
> phrase).


Boy, you went to all that trouble? Only a whacko would go "researching"
stuff like this, for a silly little newsgroup argument. I'd rather be
reading "Paradise Lost" again.





> Post editing! That's just lame of you.


Sorry, I posted from the email version you sent me. I'm really
sorry about that.




> Should be:
>
> 1. Realise that not everybody use American keyboards.

You realize it, and ask for assistance if you need it.
I think I will help you out, and prepare a special, Swedish
keyboard version of that tutorial. I'm sure you'll find it a
lot of help.





> Yes, please!  :-D
>
> (Though, in this case, I didn't take the bus because I "had to" but
> because it was very icy on the roads that day. I preferred to let the
> professional drivers worry about the road and spent the time reading a
> comic book instead. Sounds like an intelligently lazy, simple and
> entertaining solution to me...)


No, I think you don't have a car, and are mad about the bus. You're lazy,
but not intelligent.

I've been without wheels before, also. I'm sure everybody has. It's bad,
but slog along as best you can. We ain't got buses, here, so you're one-
up on me. Rest assured, there is no shame in riding the bus, or in walking.
There's no reason to be mad over that, and then take it out by posting
flames to aaa.





> Speak for yourself Mr "I could care less".

You are still quite wrong. Ask around, again. Everyone
will tell you that is a perfectly good phrase, indicating
that someone doesn't care, ect..





> Sometimes, in alt.romath, yes. Not in this group though.


Sometimes, everywhere you post, I imagine. Here is no exception.
I don't think you are helping yourself, by admitting to being
a newsgroup troll, but claiming you "don't do it here".


> Not correct. I know some trolls who make a point of not denying
> anything.

YOU would know more about this, than me. You're the troll, after
all.




> I know at least one troll who would not flame newbies, only regulars.
> Other than that, much of his opinions were similar to what you have
> shown in this thread. He did eventually write his own FAQ.
>
> http://www.hobsonsquare.com/HTMLFAQ.htm

You like to flame both new and old, on AAA. I'm sure you've studied up
on "how to be a troll". I fear I am not much interested in that. Sometimes
your ISP drops you, for being a troll. You might do well to consider
that, seeing as how you are using a university's system, to read/post
through. I know our local university doesn't approve of such behavior.
But maybe they do, in Ludd.



> Apparently he did it by copying things from others, but those others
> decided to see it as flattery rather than copyright violation.
>
> Some trolls may do this (people like PC or BS who seem to just want to
> destroy things), but most that I have seen have had the opposite effect.

That depends upon the individual who was "copied" from, and how it
was used. If you're saying you are going to start copying everything
I post, I guess that will depend on how you use it, as to how I view
your use of my words, pictures, ect.. I prefer you leave my initials
on my pictures, but if you don't, I can't stop you; unless your
school doesn't appreciate a copyright violator, using their computer.

You know, Pete once did this thing you are announcing you intend to
do to me. He was copying folks' pictures for a while, and posting them
with his initials. You were pretty mad about it, at the time.





> Regular posters can be wrong too. Pointing that out doesn't have to be
> an attempt to embarrass anybody.

I am not wrong. You are. I posted two tutorials I had made, that were
intended to give a beginner a good starting point to go from, in making
their own text art. There is not a thing wrong with them. Whatever information
you feel I should have included, you should include in your own tutorial.
I promise not to correct it, if it ever appears.




> Some trolls do that. Some trolls don't. Some trolls do that, but have a
> good reason for it.


So, you are saying you have an excuse for being a troll? I don't think
there is one.


> A few months ago I would probably have agreed with you about your
> opinions about trolls. That was before I learned that there are good
> guys among the trolls too. I was wrong. I learned.


This paragraph makes no sense.

My opinion is that trolls run a newsgroup down. They run the readers
away, and disgust the regulars. This is the kind of thing YOU do.
Then, if I understand you correctly, you learned trolls, like yourself,
could be good guys. But you were wrong, because you've learned.

Well, speaking to you - Veronicastein the troll - I take it you mean you
are going to stop being a troll? Is that what you mean?

I hope so. You are on MY thread, you know - not YOURS. Go away. Or
the next thing I will propose, is a referendum.

JRO